Mini Starters - early B - chat & feedback

[BenH]

I thought I would start a chat with a couple questions about the mini starters. Obviously they are supposed to be pretty straightforward and lots of people use them, but I have also seen a few stories of little problems and quirks. Some stories read that it is pretty painless on a B block but can sometimes be a handful on an RB.... not sure why, hoping to learn more.

The starter is the typical 90's style 360/5.9mag etc from the parts store. My car is a 65 satellite with a 440.

In my scenario, the nose of the gear housing (or whatever the correct name is) snapped off inside the bell housing. The starter could not fully seat against the surface in the trans, and it caused the snap. It did ~not~ interfere with the block, but it was very close so I just ground a little bit off as pictured.

After it broke, the starter could be reinstalled and tightened down fully flush and normal after the nose of the gear hosing snapped off, but now I am fairly sure the plunger is overextending (possible?) because after a few starts it would make an awful grind noise like bad alignment of the gears. Now I am going to need to buy another starter and do some grinding I guess.

Anyone had this specific problem? I want to confirm that the starter plunger/gear/etc can actually truly overextend and cause problems when this part is broken, I always assumed the copper plunger inside controlled that but the grinding noises make me think different. I have seen people have to grind for block clearance but not for fitting all the way in the 727.

I will test fit the new one in a spare 727 I have on the floor of the shop to see if it bottoms out like the last one did. Final note, the $30 terminal relocation part off eBay works very nice, you just need to grind a bit off the large terminal post, it sits very close to the block

Thanks

 

[gkent]

I have no idea why 440 fitment would be any different than 383/400. I do know that some starters are clocked differently than others - the reason you need that adapter. But if you order the starter number listed below it will fit a 440 with ease and plenty of clearance AND you won't need that copper adapter! I can't speak to the sbout issue, mine is installed on a 440 block with Dougs headers and a Lahewood scattershield.

As a side note, it surprises me that the snout snapped off as opposed to one or both of the mounting ears.

 

[Darter6]

I always bought mini's for a 2000 Dodge Dakota R/T 5.9
Ran them in all engines from Slants to Gen 2 Hemi's. No adapter.
This is the first I have heard of your problem.
I wish I had a answer for you.

 

[Fran Blacker]

If I put another mini starter in I'd clean up the nose as pictured in @gkent's post. Had to do some wiggling of starter to get starter in the hole in trans. Casting flash and maybe not round enough to slide in. Nothing broke but could see it happen.

 

[pnora]

Something was not right. Years back I did a job on a guys Mopar that was eating starters. Come to find out there was no bell-housing dowels. Ran into it way back on a 302 in a cougar, same thing no dowels.

 

[Fran Blacker]

Something was not right. Years back I did a job on a guys Mopar that was eating starters. Come to find out there was no bell-housing dowels. Ran into it way back on a 302 in a cougar, same thing no dowels.

Talk about finding trouble.

 

[BenH]

I always bought mini's for a 2000 Dodge Dakota R/T 5.9
Ran them in all engines from Slants to Gen 2 Hemi's. No adapter.
This is the first I have heard of your problem.
I wish I had a answer for you.

I looked them up for that truck instead of a 93 D150 5.9 and the search result gave me some better quality options, looking up the 93 just gave me 60~70$ chinese repos, the Dakota search showed an Ultima for 160, a Bosch for 170, etc.

The Denso number pictured above seems to be old and probably superseded now.

 

[BenH]

If I put another mini starter I'd clean up the nose as pictured in @gkent's post. Had to do some wiggling of starter to get starter in the hole in trans. Casting flash and maybe not round enough to slide in. Nothing broke but could see it happen.

This is what happened.

 

[gkent]

The Denso number pictured above seems to be old and probably superseded now.

So plunk the Mopar # in on RockAuto and it will at least tell you the applications !!

 

[Darter6]

You may want to contact 68HemiRR as he just posted a starter dust shield for sale.
I called them a starter shim. It may cure your problem.

 

[khryslerkid]

@BenH was it installed without one of these?

 

[lewtot184]

I have a mini on the 440 in my 65 coronet. I use 2"tti headers and connecting the wire/cable up can be frustrating. As far as breaking the snots off, and I've done it, the problem is the top mounting hole of the starter is too large for a 7/16" stud or bolt. I sleeve the top hole down and that prevents the starter from moving and snapping the locating snout.

 

[Fran Blacker]

A few years ago there were starter shim/shield for mini starters on ebay. Haven't looked in a long time, Mega parts may have them.

 

[gkent]

Unless I'm mistaken. its quite apparent that the starter dust shield is needed - the block is machined for its thickness.

 

[RemCharger]

I thought I would start a chat with a couple questions about the mini starters. Obviously they are supposed to be pretty straightforward and lots of people use them, but I have also seen a few stories of little problems and quirks. Some stories read that it is pretty painless on a B block but can sometimes be a handful on an RB.... not sure why, hoping to learn more.

They're both the same. Depends on each individual block

The starter is the typical 90's style 360/5.9mag etc from the parts store. My car is a 65 satellite with a 440.

In my scenario, the nose of the gear housing (or whatever the correct name is) snapped off inside the bell housing. The starter could not fully seat against the surface in the trans,

red flag

and it caused the snap. It did ~not~ interfere with the block, but it was very close so I just ground a little bit off as pictured.

Sounds like block interference

After it broke, the starter could be reinstalled and tightened down fully flush and normal after the nose of the gear hosing snapped off, but now I am fairly sure the plunger is overextending (possible?) because after a few starts it would make an awful grind noise like bad alignment of the gears. Now I am going to need to buy another starter and do some grinding I guess.

Yes the nose has to be on it to align properly, hence grinding

Anyone had this specific problem? I want to confirm that the starter plunger/gear/etc can actually truly overextend and cause problems when this part is broken, I always assumed the copper plunger inside controlled that but the grinding noises make me think different. I have seen people have to grind for block clearance but not for fitting all the way in the 727.

I will test fit the new one in a spare 727 I have on the floor of the shop to see if it bottoms out like the last one did.

Thanks

I've never heard of grinding a 727, but the block is almost a guarantee. It looks like you were grinding in the wrong spot. It's the U pocket of the block that is too fat. Looks like you have witness marks in the picture. Look carefully on the block for rub marks

View attachment 1741431

View attachment 1741432

View attachment 1741433

View attachment 1741434

 

[lewtot184]

That "rubbing" at the drive gear is probably where the starter is rotating/jumping around because the snout is broke off. The snout locates/indexes the starter motor. Without the snout plus a loose hole at the top of the mounting flange the starter will flop around.

 

[BenH]

The issue was the broken snout.

The big question was, what's possible when the snout breaks.

I have a shim. The original shim, not a 440source ''mini shim''.

 

[BenH]

They're both the same. Depends on each individual block

red flag

Sounds like block interference

Yes the nose has to be on it to align properly, hence grinding

I've never heard of grinding a 727, but the block is almost a guarantee. It looks like you were grinding in the wrong spot. It's the U pocket of the block that is too fat. Looks like you have witness marks in the picture. Look carefully on the block for rub marks
View attachment 1741798

There was no block interference, thx for the replies.

 

[BenH]

So plunk the Mopar # in on RockAuto and it will at least tell you the applications !!

I did.

 

[BenH]

That "rubbing" at the drive gear is probably where the starter is rotating/jumping around because the snout is broke off. The snout locates/indexes the starter motor. Without the snout plus a loose hole at the top of the mounting flange the starter will flop around.

This was info I was looking for. Thanks.