Muscle car....?????

[Pops1967GTX]

I asked a few of my motor-head friends the question. When did you hear of the term super car & muscle car.. They believe that the british car makers termed the phase super car to describe their advancement in technology & devoplement of their vehicles.. for example in grand prix racing.. Did ralph Nader & safety lobbyist. with the insurance co. coin the phase muscle car..good topic...still has me thinking..

 

[696pack]

Since it is two words unlike muscle-bound which is hypinated I don't find it in my dictionary so that means there is no real world ACCEPTED meaning for it, and it has been debate from the first time it was ever seen in print.

1. Some people say it was the first 300 h.p. car such as the Chrysler 300, which is where the first 300 got it's name. However back in those days there was no real such thing as an intermediate car in the Chrysler line nor has there ever been.

2. Some say it was the first cars that had 1 h.p. for 1 cubic inch (or more) such as the 57 fuel injected Corvette. Corvettes continued this tradition every year after 57. Some people say Corvettes or 2 seaters don't count because they are actually classed as sports cars.

3. Some say it is the first intermediate 2 door car that had a hipo full size car's engine installed from the factory, as that was taboo until Pontiac did it with the GTO. HOWEVER, Mopar fans are quick to point out that both the 62, 63, Max Wedges and the 64 Hemi cars beat the GTO out in this time line, but the masses poo poo this as there is a much larger GM hobbist community out there.

These are the arguments/justificsations I have seen for the last 45 years and no one has been able to agree on it in all that time.

Soooo, carry on with the arguement as it will never be agreed upon.:bootyshake:

BTW, I am 60 years old and a geezer too, So I have been hearing this arguement for as long as anyone here.:eusa_boohoo:

 

[6bblbird]

I remember that place, it was on Sunrise Highway in Wantagh. I was kinda young but IIRC it was more of a 'boutique', dress-up stuff sort of store. Not really much of a speed shop.

We still have a couple of decent shops left here on Long Island.

No track to race on

Nope, in the '70s, Muscle Cars in Wantagh was a true speed shop, had an installation center in the back. The installation guy was the late Eddie Haase who eventually operated Piston machine shop in Farmingdale. I used to ride my bike up there and look in the back door. Big Ed was kind of scary to me. We eventually became great friends.
Anyway.......somebody back then definitely used the name muscle car.
WF

 

[MRHWS]

If I remember correctly, I'm 61 so correct me if I'm wrong, in 1967 when I bought my 65 Grand Sport 401 4 speed, a buddy of mine coined it a street car. Anything stock was referred to as a stocker or a daddy's car. I don't recall the term muscle car being used until after the '73/74 gas crisis when everybody was trying to dump their gas guzzlers.

 

[bluefury]

Found this.
Our preference is to follow contemporary usage. The term "muscle car," coined by Road Test magazine in 1967, was not widely used in the period when these cars were new -- it only really caught on years after most of the original examples were extinct. (Road Test was not a fan of these cars, incidentally, and the term was not intended as a compliment.) From the mid-sixties to the mid-seventies, what we now think of as muscle cars were more commonly called "Supercars," often (though not always) with a capital S.


COOL !!!!!!!!!!!

Nicely put.... I always perfered to use Supercar...... It is the statement of the car, as opposed to Musclecar........... which just dosen't ring that well and might even attach an human personality to the car.

 

[Clay Dots]

We called um muscle cars!

Out here in Idaho, back in the mid 70s if you were in the know, you had heard about the legendary hemi and wanted one, even though I cant remember anyone I knew acually having one. But all my friends had muscle cars and we called them muscle cars like the GTO judge, Camaro rs ss, Road Runner, GTX, Olds 442, Super Bee, SS Chevelle 396, 401 Javelin, Firebirds, GT Mustangs, Coronet RTs a little of everything. I was mocked at that time as my car was not a muscle car a 1967 Plymouth Barracuda with a slant six, beautiful car though, Bronze exterior and interior, the little 225 ran great, had the fold down rear seat for the drive-ins :tongue8:, eventually I caved from the pressure and bought a 1968 Chevelle with a V8, big mistake, the chevy leaked oil like a sive, even after changing every gasket and rear seal. During these times the thing to do get a presentable car, two door body style so it didnt look like the parents car, install an eight track tape deck & speakers, change the wheels, maybe change carbs or cam, put on some headers and glass packs and race on the weekends much like in American Graffiti, gas was cheap, we could get about 3 gallons for just over a buck so we could cruise all night on a couple bucks worth of leaded gas. Ahh those were the days. The stories I could tell but I digress.

 

[Satellite65]

Nope, in the '70s, Muscle Cars in Wantagh was a true speed shop, had an installation center in the back. The installation guy was the late Eddie Haase who eventually operated Piston machine shop in Farmingdale. I used to ride my bike up there and look in the back door. Big Ed was kind of scary to me. We eventually became great friends.
Anyway.......somebody back then definitely used the name muscle car.
WF

HOLY ****!!!!

Eddie Haase was also a friend of mine and did all my machine work at Piston. As scary looking as he was, he was a sweetheart of a guy. He used to bust my balls relentlessly - "YOU GUYS WITH YA FUCKIN' CHRYSLERS ARE A PAIN IN MY ***!!"

So sorry to here of his passing. When/how did it happen? I hear his son is John still at it, racing some sub 7 second SBC powered thing. They didn't call Piston Racing Engines "The Mouse Factory" for nuthin!!!!

 

[1962savoy]

Great debate, some might say '49 Olds Rocket 88. I found Motor Trend published a "muscle car" list in 1965. The earliest on thier list was 62-65 Dodge Dart 413/426 MaxWedge/426 Hemi, Plymouth Fury same engines.

YUP I'd Agree with that, Late 62 was the start:Whdatk:

 

[Ron 73]

The last Belvederes were in 1970.Produced from 1951 the 67 model was available with the "Silver Special" package, to commemerate the 25th anniversary. I recall the term "Muscle Car" being thrown around in the early 80's.

If the cops drove these now, I would pass him and rev it up so he WOULD stop me! Ron

 

[6bblbird]

HOLY ****!!!!

Eddie Haase was also a friend of mine and did all my machine work at Piston. As scary looking as he was, he was a sweetheart of a guy. He used to bust my balls relentlessly - "YOU GUYS WITH YA FUCKIN' CHRYSLERS ARE A PAIN IN MY ***!!"

So sorry to here of his passing. When/how did it happen? I hear his son is John still at it, racing some sub 7 second SBC powered thing. They didn't call Piston Racing Engines "The Mouse Factory" for nuthin!!!!

Ed passed about 3-4 years ago (don't know what from). I did see his sons at E Town a couple of times since then. I believe that they still have The Mouse Factory Camaro.
WF

 

[Pops1967GTX]

Bluefury was right. happen to find a adversetment calling the gtx a supercar.http://cgi.ebay.com/Plymouth-Belvedere-GTX-Vintage-1967-Ad-Supercar-

 

[Pops1967GTX]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Plymouth-Belved...ultDomain_0&hash=item3a5df4db95#ht_1469wt_907

 

[Pops1967GTX]

 

[BeatersRus]

we called them Supercars,just like that ad.
if you had just a hopped up car,it was a street machine..
if it wasnt hopped up or it was a slug,you had a stocker.

i didnt start hearing the musclecar term until the 80-s,when the west coast started trending it.
about that time is when the european cars were starting to be referred to as supercars in their own way,the lambos and ferraris.

it was odd timewise back then,before the internet,
because all our east coast trends always started in cali and then slowly made their way across,
so by the time we would get their trend,itd be over in cali and theyd be onto something different.
nowadaze,with the net,its not like that anymore.

btw,funny you should choose that particular ad,
as i have on my shelf an original yenko/nikki 427 tachometer for that camaro.
a very early blackfaced one,with the special mount.

 

[Richard Cranium]

btw,funny you should choose that particular ad,
as i have on my shelf an original yenko/nikki 427 tachometer for that camaro.
a very early blackfaced one,with the special mount.

 

[BeatersRus]

i see i must clarify

 

[Budnicks]

I remember an older article either in Hot Rod rag. or Motor Trend mag.
or some other mag. maybe Popular Hotrodding, claiming it was a coined
the term, "muscle cars" back when they did
a comparison in a Mag. for the then new,
Pontiac GTO (64 GTO) vs GTO Ferrari...

1st recalled mention "muscle car" terminology
definition
was a lighter than full-size car, better that it's a midsize car
Belv./Satellite, RR, GTX, R/T, Super Bee, Chevelle, GTO, 442, GS etc.
mid 1960's to early 1970's midsized American 64-71, (sorry that's the criteria)
with a RWD, big block, 2 dr, dual exhaust & a min. of a 4bbl carb
performance oriented cars, many were youth market oriented, 4 pass.+ cars
& usually all had over 300hp & also BB engines, was part of that criteria too

most had 4 speeds back then too (but that wasn't part of the terminology/criteria listed)

people with the other full sized, compact, pony or sports/performance cars
(many of which are listed below)
all glammed onto the term too, maybe just to be inclusive/included,
or maybe because they thought it fit, what they wanted it to be
it sounds cooler or something, than sports car or pony car or compact car
or full size, whatever...

don't shoot the messenger,
I didn't write the article !!! & I'm going off memory too

IMO the 1st real "muscle car" was the D500 Dodge Hemi's
some will arguably say it was the
49 Olds 1st real performance OHV, Rocket 88
or Hudson Hornets early NASCAR dominant winners, but not a V8
(I'm prejudice I like the Dodge)
or
IMO it's more likely the 62 Superstock Plymouth's
or 62 Dodge's Ramcharger either 413cid Max Wedge cars
full 2 years before the 64 GTO was ever built,
they just weren't called that "yet"

(Term "Muscle Car" didn't include & wasn't ever intended for Corvettes, Camaros, Mustangs,
`cuda/Barracuda, Nova, Demon, Duster, Dart/GTS, etc., they are compact cars, sports cars
or some say pony cars, they were not not deemed "muscle cars", per say by the
org. terminology/coined phrase/descriptions, it didn't include full size cars, just midsize)

that's in a car magazine terminology anyway

that's the scuttle-but, enjoy

 

[Ron H]

Having interest in the 'muscle car' handle, much of what I've researched gives credit to DeLorean and his '64 GTO. A big motor stuffed into a mid-size car. Much as I love GTO's, between my brother and me we had five of those between '65 and '69, was always perplexed by why GTO got the credit first. My '63 Fury...came with some five or six engine choices from a slant six to a 426! Kiddin me? In '62 Dodge/Plymouths were downsized, as rumor had it, Chevy was coming out with a smaller car...ahh Nova, so Chrysler re-designed their cars and **** the era mopars were thee thing at the tracks preferred by legendary pro drivers. So what's the difference btw a downsized mopar with a 426 factory option and a Pontiac with a 389? And for the purists, they get peeved if ya call a Mustang, Camaro, Firebird, or later the Cuda/Challenger a muscle car...they say they're 'pony cars'. Anyway, I'm a geezer too having a 1st gen Cuda and Challenger I drove as my daily back when. Have zero recollection of exactly when the muscle car tag evolved...

 

[Andew Sury]

Splitting hairs with a bald man.

68Hemi Dart Supercar
69Hemi SuperBee Musclecar
69L78 69 Camaro Ponycar
70LS6 Chevelle Musclecar
68 428 Mustang Ponycar
67 GT500KR Supercar
71 Hemicuda Vert Unicorn
70 Hemicuda Ponycar
70 Buick GSX Musclecar
69 Yenko Camaro Supercar
67 Hemi Satellite Grand Spaulding tuned Supercar

Some people think cucumbers taste better pickled.

Opinions vary, and you can't effectively argue opinions.

 

[Cojohnso1]

I'm one of the "old school" guys, (geeser now), who was driving these cars back in the day.... when they were new.

I always refered to the factory high performance cars as "supercars". That was the name seen in the period magazines, ad's and in the showrooms. I am curious as to when the term "musclecar" was coined..........

Who remembers the first time you heard our cars refered to as musclecars....????

Will.

The first time I heard the expression was in 1976. A good 4-5 years after the "Muscle car" era. I still believe the first muscle car was the 64 GTO. It was marketed as "Working man's sports car." And the era began. Ending eruptly in 72.

The reason I believe cars before the first GTO are not muscle cars. But family coupes with big motors? Is because the GTO along with a handful of other did not have low performance options. No 4 door option for GTO, Chevelle SS, Roadrunner ect. No 6 cyl option for Buick GS, Superbee, 442 ect. It was muscle or bust! Purposefully built for one thing. Thrill!