Muscle car....?????

[Cranky]

I also believe that Plymouth and Pontiac carried their respected parent companies thru what I also believe the greatest performance wars in US automotive history. Muscle car era of the 1960s.

And in the end. What thanks did they get?

View attachment 1315791

The factory's got a big thanks on the bottom line. Chrysler Corp sold way more roadrunners in the first year than they had projected. I think they were all pretty happy with the sales.....

FWIW I had a personalized plate MUSLCAR on my first Challenger R/T back in 78.... And yes, I caught some flak about Challengers being "Pony cars" But IMO a "Pony Car" carries a small block. not a 440.....

I agree and in my opinion a pony car was like the first generation mustang with a 289. My 66 Fastback 4 speed Mustang ran a 15 flat with a 2.80 gear. The only mods to the engine were headers, intake and carb and a good tune. My 66 belvedere with a 383, headers intake and carb ran a 14.80 with a 2.94 gear. Never considered it a pony car though. Heck it was 750 lbs heavier than the mustang.

 

[Cojohnso1]

The factory's got a big thanks on the bottom line. Chrysler Corp sold way more roadrunners in the first year than they had projected. I think they were all pretty happy.

My point of course is that nether divisions exist today. Dodge and Chevy got FAR more corporate love. Even back then. When the two work horse divisions were winning.

Plymouth never won a national manufacture championship because they were out numbered. The bigger divisions got more of the participation points. Even when Plymouth had more event wins.

I believe Pontiac did have one or possibly two (early 60s.) But they too were dominated. Not only by competition, but their own parent company's other division models.

No love man. Just no love!

 

[Cranky]

My point of course is that nether divisions exist today. Dodge and Chevy got FAR more corporate love. Even back then. When the two work horse divisions were winning.

Plymouth never won a national manufacture championship because they were out numbered. The bigger divisions got more of the participation points. Even when Plymouth had more event wins.

I believe Pontiac did have one or possibly two (early 60s.) But they too were dominated. Not only by competition, but their own parent company's other division models.

No love man. Just no love!

At least the Plymouth roadrunner got car of the year in 69......

 

[Cojohnso1]

At least the Plymouth roadrunner got car of the year in 69......

Yes. And possibly the best year in US automotive design history.

I know that's very argumentative. But considering Mustang and Camaro. '69 is the pinnacle year for those ponies. 1970 might edge out '69 for Plymouth. But I believe '69 edges out for Dodge in Chrysler world.

Best of times in US performance days.

 

[Photon440]

September 1966 Cars magazine

Sept. 1965 ad for Chevelle calls it a 'musclecar'.

Tom McCahill used the term in 1961 (although not in a positive sense) on a review of the 1962 Ford Thunderbird: "The performance of the T-Bird Road remained largely unchanged since 1961. The standard engine of 390 cubic inch V8 with 300hp gave the Thunderbird enough speed for a typical buyer of the T-Bird, though not a Muscle Car."

 

[Hey-O]

1965 Dodge Coronet Muscle car!! LOL

 

[Ron H]

I agree. Very argumentative. And Lemans you could get as 4-door. Not GTO. (That I know know of) We of course will not be able to settle this debate.

Lol, maybe not; but I reference all da hoopla surrounding the ‘birth’ of a muscle car: Defined as a large motor stuffed into a mid-size car. A Tempest nicely badged ‘GTO’ 1964. GTO no 4 door or wagon. Chrysler down-sized their Dodges/Plymouths in ’62 coming with a 413. ’63 Sport Fury having a 426 engine option, not to discount a 383. ‘Sport’ Fury no 4 door or wagon. I’d opin ‘Sport’ was a label akin to GTO a year earlier. Check the weight and dimensions of these cars, pretty close. I’d have to guess Mr. DeLorean was well aware of what mopar did in 1962. I have people thinking how ‘big’ my 63 Fury is, I say it is a mid-size car.

 

[Cojohnso1]

Lol, maybe not; but I reference all da hoopla surrounding the ‘birth’ of a muscle car: Defined as a large motor stuffed into a mid-size car. A Tempest nicely badged ‘GTO’ 1964. GTO no 4 door or wagon. Chrysler down-sized their Dodges/Plymouths in ’62 coming with a 413. ’63 Sport Fury having a 426 engine option, not to discount a 383. ‘Sport’ Fury no 4 door or wagon. I’d opin ‘Sport’ was a label akin to GTO a year earlier. Check the weight and dimensions of these cars, pretty close. I’d have to guess Mr. DeLorean was well aware of what mopar did in 1962. I have people thinking how ‘big’ my 63 Fury is, I say it is a mid-size car.

Fury is a little funny with regards to body category. Some were C bodies. While a few years were B bodies.

 

[440 PHIXX]

A lot of the magazines I have from 1968-1970, refer to them as “Super Cars”.

 

[Cojohnso1]

A lot of the magazines I have from 1968-1970, refer to them as “Super Cars”.

This was what I remembered. And now that "Muscle car" is the preferred description name. The exotic car manufacturers took "Super cars" Today? The exotic buzz name is "Hypercar"

 

[Budnicks]

I said it here before too
mid-sized 1964-72 (don't shoot the messenger)
2 dr sports coupes, Big block, dual exhaust,
performance-oriented American cars

full-size cars as cool as they are, many had great power even before
like the 61 Impala 409 409hp or later 425hp , are full-size cars
the 392 dual 4bbl Chryslers, letter cars
or Hemi powered Dodges/Plymouths prior
or the 413 Long Ram/Sonic Ram cars
or the Galaxies with the 406 triple Holley carbs or 2 x 4bbls
as much as they were cool/they certainly had plenty of real Muscle
they aren't considered Muscle Cars

'cudas, Darts, Sport Darts, Dusters, Demons,
Mustangs Fairlanes Sprints Falcons Mavericks
Cougars Calientes Cyclones Comets
Corvettes Novas Chevy-IIs Camaros
AMX Hornets Gremlins
Firebirds Formulas TAs etc. etc. etc.
are either classified 'as compact' for the time/era
or were classified as 'sports cars',
not Muscle Cars

some specialty cars were Supercars
Yenko, Nickey, Mr. Norm's, Baldwin Motion
Bobcat (early version of the LeMans fitted like a GTO), etc.
were Super Cars or Super Tuned/Turner Super Cars

even if many of the above had plenty of Muscle

Hemmings.com , 'the first muscle car older than you'
I tried to add the link it kept getting an error 404

As I remember it
'allegedly' it was John Delorean, Pontiac's flamboyant pretty-boy brainchild hipster
said in Motor Trend Mag. around Sept. 1964 (? maybe)
(another in 1965 IIRC (? maybe), when they did the write up on the Pontiac GTO,
going against the GTO Ferrari)
& 1st the main article was about appealing to the youth markets

 

[Photon440]

The Ferrari GTO vs. Pontiac GTO article was March 1964 (Car & Driver). John DeLorean may have said it, but I thought it was Jim Wangers, the guy who pushed performance in the advertising who mentioned it first for the GTO.

 

[440 4 speed]

Three-years before GTO, Chevrolet released the mid-year 61 Impala SS 409.
View attachment 781621

A fellow up here had one, and it and he got spanked by a 64 Rambler Classic (660 I think) with a 327 in a test on the highway.

 

[Hey-O]

409 with 409 HP with twin four-barrels was a tire burning machine. I'd have to see that being done in person. I've driven every version 327 ever built and the 365 horsepower in the vette was 327 at Its best. 375 with a Rochester Ramjet fuel-injected system, I never drove the 375 version.

 

[Cojohnso1]

I said it here before too
mid-sized 1964-72 (don't shoot the messenger)
2 dr sports coupes, Big block, dual exhaust,
performance-oriented American cars

full-size cars as cool as they are, many had great power even before
like the 61 Impala 409 409hp or later 425hp , are full-size cars
the 392 dual 4bbl Chryslers, letter cars
or Hemi powered Dodges/Plymouths prior
or the 413 Long Ram/Sonic Ram cars
or the Galaxies with the 406 triple Holley carbs or 2 x 4bbls
as much as they were cool/they certainly had plenty of real Muscle
they aren't considered Muscle Cars

'cudas, Darts, Sport Darts, Dusters, Demons,
Mustangs Fairlanes Sprints Falcons Mavericks
Cougars Calientes Cyclones Comets
Corvettes Novas Chevy-IIs Camaros
AMX Hornets Gremlins
Firebirds Formulas TAs etc. etc. etc.
are either classified 'as compact' for the time/era
or were classified as 'sports cars',
not Muscle Cars

some specialty cars were Supercars
Yenko, Nickey, Mr. Norm's, Baldwin Motion
Bobcat (early version of the LeMans fitted like a GTO), etc.
were Super Cars or Super Tuned/Turner Super Cars

even if many of the above had plenty of Muscle

Hemmings.com , 'the first muscle car older than you'
I tried to add the link it kept getting an error 404

As I remember it
'allegedly' it was John Delorean, Pontiac's flamboyant pretty-boy brainchild hipster
said in Motor Trend Mag. around Sept. 1964 (? maybe)
(another in 1965 IIRC (? maybe), when they did the write up on the Pontiac GTO,
going against the GTO Ferrari)
& 1st the main article was about appealing to the youth markets

I agree with this description. Even getting '72 to slide in. It's almost easier to just list what does qualify? (Alphabetical order.)

Buick GS/GSX
Chevy Chevelle SS
Dodge Charger/Superbee
Ford Torino GT
Mercury Cyclone
Oldsmobile 442
Plymouth GTX/Roadrunner
Pontiac GTO

1964 -1972

 

[440 4 speed]

409 with 409 HP with twin four-barrels was a tire burning machine. I'd have to see that being done in person. I've driven every version 327 ever built and the 365 horsepower in the vette was 327 at Its best. 375 with a Rochester Ramjet fuel-injected system, I never drove the 375 version.

It was a 409 4 barrel if I remember and Merv paid Andy 24 beer, they did 3 runs. the Rambler had a larger exhaust system, was a 2 door imitation hard top. There are still quite a few living witnesses that were pleased to see Merv lose.

 

[Photon440]

A fellow up here had one, and it and he got spanked by a 64 Rambler Classic (660 I think) with a 327 in a test on the highway.

Those Rambler 327s weren't too shabby. The 1957 Rambler Rebel with the 255 hp. 327 was the absolute quickest American car you could get that year, blowing past the 300 etc. because it was so much lighter. Only the fuelie Corvette would beat it. It was another five years before Chevrolet finally got their own 327.

 

[Ron H]

I agree with this description. Even getting '72 to slide in. It's almost easier to just list what does qualify? (Alphabetical order.)

Buick GS/GSX
Chevy Chevelle SS
Dodge Charger/Superbee
Ford Torino GT
Mercury Cyclone
Oldsmobile 442
Plymouth GTX/Roadrunner
Pontiac GTO

1964 -1972

As we’ve mentioned, certainly debatable all day long; but what would a 413 in the downsized SS 62 Dodge or the Plymouth qualify as? What was that Little Old Lady from Pasadena cruising around in before the GTO left the womb? As the story goes it was about a big motor in a mid-size, not full-size car. Least this is how I got it.

 

[guy gadbois]

I think Mr Budnicks pretty well nailed it above; however as to the original question [as I remember!] , the term Musclecar did indeed go back into the 60s. The 'Supercar' moniker was reserved for 'special' Musclecars, like the Hurst Olds, Yenkos, Motion cars etc etc.
Now...as to why certain vehicles like MaxWedge 63 Plymouths were not considered/called 'musclecars' even tho they could spank any GTO, it seems to me that the term was only applied to cars with a certain 'package/nameplate' that was specifically marketed to a particular demographic. e.g... the GTO was an option on the Tempest in 64 and 5, but the GTO PACKAGE made it a musclecar as opposed to merely a mid size sedan with a big engine. BITD, anyone would consider a RoadRunner a 'Musclecar' - including the base motor car - but few if any would apply that moniker to a Belvedere or Satellite with essentially the same engine or even larger; no one would argue that a plain Belvedere I with a Hemi wasnt a monster, and a better choice for pure performance/street racing/drag racing, but it looked like a City Water Dept car [which was part of its charm] and despite its performance, would not have been termed a 'musclecar'. Least ways thats how it was in my neck of the woods.

Memory says that Jim Wangers discussed this in his book, but its been too many years since I read that tome and Im too lazy right to go peruse it to hand yall a site/reference... Youll just hafta trust me on this one... ;)

 

[Photon440]

As we’ve mentioned, certainly debatable all day long; but what would a 413 in the downsized SS 62 Dodge or the Plymouth qualify as? What was that Little Old Lady from Pasadena cruising around in before the GTO left the womb? As the story goes it was about a big motor in a mid-size, not full-size car. Least this is how I got it.

The Little Old Lady From Pasadena was from 1964, first the Dodge ad campaign in early '64, then the Jan and Dean song that was released in June. The song mentions a "super stock Dodge" but the original ads used different cars.