Muscle car....?????

[440 PHIXX]

The Little Old Lady From Pasadena was from 1964, first the Dodge ad campaign in early '64, then the Jan and Dean song that was released in June. The song mentions a "super stock Dodge" but the original ads used different cars.
View attachment 1316632

She drove Landy’s A Body Dodge in this commercial.

 

[Ron H]

Lots of correct info, IMO, but how the 62-63 models were excluded is just a personal bug. SS Dodge, or ‘Sport’ Fury package (63) with the 426 or even 383 engine so labeled sure seems like mussels. My departed elder cousin bought a 64 Polara 426/4sp new running low 11’s wasn’t a muscle car? I guess extra-special badging much as I like GTO (had a couple) drew a line..

 

[Cojohnso1]

As we’ve mentioned, certainly debatable all day long; but what would a 413 in the downsized SS 62 Dodge or the Plymouth qualify as? What was that Little Old Lady from Pasadena cruising around in before the GTO left the womb? As the story goes it was about a big motor in a mid-size, not full-size car. Least this is how I got it.

Unfortunately no. I fully understand the argumentative nature of topic. And standing there telling a '63 Max Wedge Savoy owner that his car is not a Muscle car just might get you a pop to the lip. But in the "Purist" sense? It's not. That Savoy, although a mid size B-body, is a high performance optioned family car. You can get a Savoy with a 6 cyl, 4-doors. Hell, I believe they made a Station Wagon version? Using my only current Muscle car as an example. '69 GTX. That car had no other options. Muscle or Bust. Your example of '62 SS? I'm assuming you are referring to '62 Dodge Dart Super Stock? That car is a high performance optioned compact.

This of course is just my opinion. And there is no "Official" Muscle car Standard. But in my opinion. A Muscle car was purposefully built mid-size just for that. If one wanted a lower performance or more door option? You had buy something else. The performance part ending beginning 1972.

Below are my 3 current classic cars. Duster is a Compact. Cuda is a Pony. Only the GTX is a Muscle car. Once again. In the "Purist" sense.

 

[Photon440]

Unfortunately no. I fully understand the argumentative nature of topic. And standing there telling a '63 Max Wedge Savoy owner that his car is not a Muscle car just might get you a pop to the lip. But in the "Purist" sense? It's not. That Savoy, although a mid size B-body, is a high performance optioned family car. You can get a Savoy with a 6 cyl, 4-doors. Hell, I believe they made a Station Wagon version? Using my only current Muscle car as an example. '69 GTX. That car had no other options. Muscle or Bust. Your example of '62 SS? I'm assuming you are referring to '62 Dodge Dart Super Stock? That car is a high performance optioned compact.

This of course is just my opinion. And there is no "Official" Muscle car Standard. But in my opinion. A Muscle car was purposefully built mid-size just for that. If one wanted a lower performance or more door option? You had buy something else. The performance part ending beginning 1972.

Below are my 3 current classic cars. Duster is a Compact. Cuda is a Pony. Only the GTX is a Muscle car. Once again. In the "Purist" sense.

View attachment 1316681

The 1964 GTO was also a high performance optioned family car. The GTO package was merely an option on the LeMans.

 

[Cojohnso1]

The 1964 GTO was also a high performance optioned family car. The GTO package was merely an option on the LeMans.

I've heard that argument. Base models don't count. Production model. My GTX Title says "Belvedere Special." Thus all GTX are Belvedere. But not all Belvedere are GTX.

 

[Ron H]

In ’62 the Dart was a mid-size and morphed to a compact in ’63. I know the savoy was a trimmed down model with the Fury, and more, the Sport Fury having more options/trim/goodies. I’d say, IMO, not unlike a RR vs GTX. The SF didn’t come as a more door or wagon; often devoid of a 318 having the 361, 383, or 426…though yes you could order the bigger engines in the less fancy models. We having fun yet? Lol

 

[Cojohnso1]

In ’62 the Dart was a mid-size and morphed to a compact in ’63. I know the savoy was a trimmed down model with the Fury, and more, the Sport Fury having more options/trim/goodies. I’d say, IMO, not unlike a RR vs GTX. The SF didn’t come as a more door or wagon; often devoid of a 318 having the 361, 383, or 426…though yes you could order the bigger engines in the less fancy models. We having fun yet? Lol
View attachment 1316802

I didn't know that. That certainly checks a big box on the muscle car validation check list. Lol.

 

[Cranky]

I didn't know that. That certainly checks a big box on the muscle car validation check list. Lol.

Yup, the first year Dart....62 was a B body. You could get a 62 Valiant that was a compact (A body) and we probably would have had one if it wasn't for that ugly trunk lid on it. We ended up getting a 63 Dart 170 iirc. That car only had a heater in it and the smallest engine possible with 3 on the tree. It was my first stick shift to drive when I was 13. Basically I 'took' the car to go mow yards and without my dad's permission. He was happy about that one, not lol

 

[Cojohnso1]

Yup, the first year Dart....62 was a B body. You could get a 62 Valiant that was a compact (A body) and we probably would have had one if it wasn't for that ugly trunk lid on it. We ended up getting a 63 Dart 170 iirc. That car only had a heater in it and the smallest engine possible with 3 on the tree. It was my first stick shift to drive when I was 13. Basically I 'took' the car to go mow yards and without my dad's permission. He was happy about that one, not lol

There are always exceptions and non compliment examples to any rule. Especially a rule that had no standard in its conception. Charger is an example. They did make lower performance options. Hell, I believe there were 4-door options in Gen 1. But to exclude Charger from the "Muscle car" acceptance list would almost be blasphemy. Lol.

 

[guy gadbois]

She drove Landy’s A Body Dodge in this commercial.

This is so bleedin fantastic! And look!... not a 'helmet', or knee pads ner nuthin in sight... Aaaahhhh... those were the days.

 

[RemCharger]

Hell, I believe there were 4-door options in Gen 1.

If you include the hood, and trunk, I guess.

 

[Cranky]

There are always exceptions and non compliment examples to any rule. Especially a rule that had no standard in its conception. Charger is an example. They did make lower performance options. Hell, I believe there were 4-door options in Gen 1. But to exclude Charger from the "Muscle car" acceptance list would almost be blasphemy. Lol.

4 doors for the Gen1 Charger?

 

[Pops1967GTX]

A lot of the magazines I have from 1968-1970, refer to them as “Super Cars”.

Here’s from 1967

 

[chargervert]

Heres my take...I think it was the 63 gto credited with the start. Mid size cars with performance v8s. In 1970 HP started dropping. By 73 the gas crunch and government regulations had killed them. I also took it that this era was the only muscle cars. Another idea is that it was the "top" cars only. ie my 70 satellite is not a muscle car but the roadrunner was. my 67 chevelle malibu-no... a 442 yes. I look at the ones that were stripped down with big cubes compared to those the average housewife drove. I keep these things in mind as respect for a time when cars were great. I hate it when i see some kid saying he has an 84 mustang muscle car. I got my license in 1988 and drove a 71 cutlass supreme. I had to race more 88 mustang gts than i can count. I bought and worked on mine and their mommy and daddy paid for theirs.

The GTO may have been credited with being the first muscle car, by Wangers own definition of an intermediate size car with a large displacement
engine, the 62 to 64 B body max wedge Mopars came first,and at 415 to 425 horsepower stock,they would stomp an effing mudhole in any factory GTO ever built.

 

[Ron H]

The GTO may have been credited with being the first muscle car, by Wangers own definition of an intermediate size car with a large displacement
engine, the 62 to 64 B body max wedge Mopars came first,and at 415 to 425 horsepower stock,they would stomp an effing mudhole in any factory GTO ever built.

Yeah, by popular definition of the 1st muscle car, it was stuffing a big motor in a mid-size car and special badging calling out the GTO. Some don’t remember or recognize that mopar downsized their Dodges and Plymouths, kind of in a hurry, in ’62 due to rumors about the other big-2 doing this – well the Nova and Fairlane came out. They didn’t crunch their Impala’s or Galaxies.

All I can say (MO) is what a great decision it was. And it defines an earlier muscle car when the BB’s were installed. Having a ’63 Fury, I’ve had people comment on it being a big car…well not, it’s a mid-size car and glad it isn’t any bigger than it is.

NO knocks to the GTO’s, I’ve had them and still like ‘em a lot.

 

[Budnicks]

The factory's got a big thanks on the bottom line. Chrysler Corp sold way more roadrunners in the first year than they had projected. I think they were all pretty happy with the sales.....

Yep they figured like 5,000 cars & they sold 44,000+ in 1968 1st year,
even came out with the HT RM23 Decore package versions,
added to the RM21 Post Coupes

 

[Cojohnso1]

The GTO may have been credited with being the first muscle car, by Wangers own definition of an intermediate size car with a large displacement
engine, the 62 to 64 B body max wedge Mopars came first,and at 415 to 425 horsepower stock,they would stomp an effing mudhole in any factory GTO ever built.

What differs? Savoy, Polara, Dart. ect had family car options. Like 4 door. 6 cylinder ect. GTO did not. It was Muscle or bust.

Yes, this topic is very argumentative. The term "Muscle Car" wasn't used until later in the production's run.

IMO. GTO was the first Muscle car.

 

[Ron H]

What differs? Savoy, Polara, Dart. ect had family car options. Like 4 door. 6 cylinder ect. GTO did not. It was Muscle or bust.

Yes, this topic is very argumentative. The term "Muscle Car" wasn't used until later in the production's run.

IMO. GTO was the first Muscle car.

Minus the badge, the goat was a Lemans/Tempest 2-door or vert body. The ‘Sport Fury’ only came in a 2-door and vert..

 

[Budnicks]

1968 Ads

the words Boss of the Supercar (the GTX)
was used below in this add for the 68 RR
bottom section of this advert.

 

[Budnicks]