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Ok, I've about had it with the Mopar Performance distributor/ignition

the older mopar electronic distributors had 13 degree advance plates which means 26 crank degrees. i usually run 8-10 degrees initial with these to get a 34-36 degree total. stock springs will bring it all in around 2800rpm. basically good enough for that cam. the comp 270 is a short cam ground 110lsa with 4 degrees of advance ground into it. the 270 along with comp cams magnum replacement and xe268 close the intake too early with anything over 9:1 compression. this does make for very good vacuum, maybe too much for the vacuum advance; but thats fixable. the stock magnum cam is ground on 115lsa and closes the intake at 71ABDC. the 270 will close the intake at 61ABDC; very noticeable difference. the summit 6401 cam is ground on 114lsa and closes the intake valve at 74ABDC (very good choice for stock or near stock engines. has about 10 degrees more duration at .050" lobe lift and .200" lobe lift, with a little more lift at the valve with absolutely no bad driving characteristics). from my experience these big cube engines in near stock condition don't want short cams with tight lsa's and early intake valve closings; unless the compression ratio is down around 8:1.
Wow, lots of good information here, but I get lost in all the numbers sometimes.

Not to doubt what you've written, but from what I can find on them,
the factory cam for the 440magnums had specs like:
duration: 268*I 276*E
lift: .464 I&E
separation: 110*

the Magnum 270 Comp Cam I just put in the motor:
duration: 270* I&E
lift: .470 I&E
separation 110*

I don't know squat, but that doesn't look like much difference in cams to me.
Certainly not enough to fight me like the dickens tuning the thing, that's for sure.
Ought to set up pretty much stock, I'd think?
 
Just bought a parts store ignition control unit and installed it. Car fired right up and I set timing to factory 5BTDC and re-connected the vacuum advance. Haven't taken it for a drive just yet (bad storms in the area).
What, exactly, do the control units do? Do they play a role in advance at all?
 
Wow, lots of good information here, but I get lost in all the numbers sometimes.

Not to doubt what you've written, but from what I can find on them,
the factory cam for the 440magnums had specs like:
duration: 268*I 276*E
lift: .464 I&E
separation: 110*

the Magnum 270 Comp Cam I just put in the motor:
duration: 270* I&E
lift: .470 I&E
separation 110*

I don't know squat, but that doesn't look like much difference in cams to me.
Certainly not enough to fight me like the dickens tuning the thing, that's for sure.
Ought to set up pretty much stock, I'd think?
my numbers are correct. they are not only published but i've ran a few of those cams thru a degree wheel. unfortunately you don't understand what the differences mean.
 
my numbers are correct. they are not only published but i've ran a few of those cams thru a degree wheel. unfortunately you don't understand what the differences mean.
I took the numbers I posted directly from the Comp cams website.
I do understand what the basics mean, such as the numbers I posted and on the surface, these two cams are dang close to one another, certainly close enough to have an easy to tune engine.

If you can explain why not, rather than try to dazzle everyone, I'd certainly appreciate it.
 
Just bought a parts store ignition control unit and installed it. Car fired right up and I set timing to factory 5BTDC and re-connected the vacuum advance. Haven't taken it for a drive just yet (bad storms in the area).
What, exactly, do the control units do? Do they play a role in advance at all?
Just picks up a signal from the distributor, sends a set amount of voltage to the coil and triggers the coil by grounding it. That is also why grounding the ECU is so important.
 
Had problems with my orange box, hard to start the 440 when warm (fuel soak) and bad power after 4000-4500 rpm.
Installed a msd 6a and the problems went away.
Stock magnetic mopar dizzy.
 
Had problems with my orange box, hard to start the 440 when warm (fuel soak) and bad power after 4000-4500 rpm.
Installed a msd 6a and the problems went away.
Stock magnetic mopar dizzy.

My information may be well out of date, but the Chrysler Orange box was a "street" style box with a fairly low RPM projected max, 5500 as I recall. If there are any other weaknesses in the system, the box may not be able to work up to its design level (5500 rpm). The MSD is intended for much higher RPM capability, also the higher spark strength & duration helps with any fuel issues so not surprising it works much better.

moparedtn, be careful with all cam specs, the reason folks went to quoting the .050 number is that manufacturers rated the duration at all kinds or tappet lifts that varied widely (.000, .005, .010, .020 etc), making specs impossible to compare. On top of that lift rates make so much difference in performance (and durability of valvetrain components).
 
My information may be well out of date, but the Chrysler Orange box was a "street" style box with a fairly low RPM projected max, 5500 as I recall. If there are any other weaknesses in the system, the box may not be able to work up to its design level (5500 rpm). The MSD is intended for much higher RPM capability, also the higher spark strength & duration helps with any fuel issues so not surprising it works much better.

moparedtn, be careful with all cam specs, the reason folks went to quoting the .050 number is that manufacturers rated the duration at all kinds or tappet lifts that varied widely (.000, .005, .010, .020 etc), making specs impossible to compare. On top of that lift rates make so much difference in performance (and durability of valvetrain components).
Oh, I claim no expertise in them other than a working knowledge, trust me.
That's why when it became obvious that the purpleshaft I had was garbage and it was replacement time, I started a thread here seeking help and advice and once I was comfortable that I had learned all I was going to with that route, I got on the horn with Comp Cams and spent considerable time with their "experts" as well, picking their brains.

I had determined that it was going to be a Comp Cam in the car, thanks to many helpful posts from members here.

Once I had a short list of their cams that would be acceptable based on their recommendations, I then went "live" with a representative of Summit and he went about figuring out which ones were on their shelf for immediate shipment.
(I was under time constraints, trying to hit a time "window" between hospital procedures for my latest war with cancer, so I needed to MOVE if I was going to get it done).
I also verified with them (as I had with Comp) of what a stock 440 magnum cams' specs were so that I'd avoid an amateur mistake of getting something that wouldn't work well with the engine at hand, or at least try to.
Although the XE268 was #1 choice, Summit didn't have it in stock. Summit's folks recommended the Magnum 280 cam,
saying that they'd had a lot of positive feedback from their regular Mopar engine builder customers - but again, they had none on the shelf.
Next best option, given the time constraints? The Magnum 270 I have now.
Comps' guys told me it was "damn near an exact stock replacement", except for the dual duration part the stock one has.
Summits' guys concurred and called it a "one step up" cam.
I bought the cam and have been quite happy with the whole reassembly and break-in process.
It has a little rumble and I wish it had more, but I'm looking for simple and livable here, remember, so that's ok.
Sounds mean enough.

Anyways, back to the question at hand...

- - - Updated - - -

Just picks up a signal from the distributor, sends a set amount of voltage to the coil and triggers the coil by grounding it. That is also why grounding the ECU is so important.
Very good, thanks.
So the differences between an off the shelf aftermarket replacement, the orange Mopar box and the chrome Mopar box is primarily just the RPM limit they'll work to?
 
What everybody has told you about your cam is correct. The only difference from your XE choice and the Magnum that you have is the exhaust dur. is shorter than the XE. I was going to tell you to bump your timing up to about 10* or more and you'd notice a big difference in performance but you'll lose what little thumping at idle you have now, your call. Good Luck
 
What everybody has told you about your cam is correct. The only difference from your XE choice and the Magnum that you have is the exhaust dur. is shorter than the XE. I was going to tell you to bump your timing up to about 10* or more and you'd notice a big difference in performance but you'll lose what little thumping at idle you have now, your call. Good Luck
Oh, trust me, I've tried everything from 18*BTDC all the way back to where it is now (5*BTDC), in 1-2 degree increments.
The surging/jittering gets worse the more initial timing you give it.
Yeah, worse.
Weird, man. I can't explain it. It's not starving for gas at all I don't think, either.
Since the control module is out of the equation and even the coil got replaced, the only solution I can come up with is the distributor itself?
 
Did you make sure the reluctor gap was set to .008"? My car had the same symptoms and I checked and the gap wasn't set correctly before the brand-new distributor was sent to me.
 
Also check the reluctor and rotor phasing. It is possible on many reluctors to place them for clockwise and counter clockwise rotation and should be marked on the reluctor. If phasing is wrong high voltage will not be sent at the right time to connect with the proper cap tower.
 
Did you make sure the reluctor gap was set to .008"? My car had the same symptoms and I checked and the gap wasn't set correctly before the brand-new distributor was sent to me.
You know, I haven't - it went right from the box to the motor.
Question on that, though - would that not effect running at ANY rpm?

- - - Updated - - -

Also check the reluctor and rotor phasing. It is possible on many reluctors to place them for clockwise and counter clockwise rotation and should be marked on the reluctor. If phasing is wrong high voltage will not be sent at the right time to connect with the proper cap tower.
Yikes. You'd think Ma Mopar would have gotten that right, eh? I know, I know, what happens when we assume... :)
Thanks!
 
Also check the reluctor and rotor phasing. It is possible on many reluctors to place them for clockwise and counter clockwise rotation and should be marked on the reluctor. If phasing is wrong high voltage will not be sent at the right time to connect with the proper cap tower.

Ya know, that will really muck things up and have you head scratching trying to figure out what's up. DAMHIK, ask Cr8crshr.
 
Ok, to repeat my current two questions:
1. What is the difference between a stock, orange and chrome ignition control module?

2. Am I right in this scenario in thinking a stock distributor, say from Rock Auto, is worth pursuing at this point?
 
For question #1 -
Blue - Can't confirm but stated as 6000 RPM also
Orange - 6000 RPM
Chrome - 8000 RPM
Gold - 10000 RPM "race only".

For question #2 -
Let the others chime in. I'm a Mopar guy but I don't care for their OEM ignition systems. I'll leave it at that.
 
Have run a standard /6 ECU with Mallory coil for years up to 7k with out spark loss and from every thing I have read on this site and from other sources will definitely not be upgrading with Chrysler performance ECU's. Your engine will more than likely never see over 6k so the stock ECU with good ground should work just fine.
 
After having driven it several times recently, everything is fine when I get on it up until it gets over 4500rpm.
Then the stumbling gremlins come out. This is more pronounced when I have the vacuum advance hooked up.
I gotta think it's something to do with the advance setup in the MP distributor.
New Holley 750, fuel tank/sending unit, filter, etc. says it probably isn't fuel....
 
At what rpm is the distributor go full advance and what is the total timing when it gets there? It should have total advance at 3800 with timing at about 34°. Do you know what the vacuum readings are before collapse? What happens to the rpm readings while every thing have gone south?
 
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