Understood. Then pre-1968 cars where only date codes and casting numbers tell the story, it's obviously nearly impossible to prove "numbers matching" or original to car without statements from previous owners.
Opinions on the value of a car
- Thread starter 67 WS23
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#41
Well-Known Member
I would say a car with a premium VIN and wrong engine has a lot more potential for value than a car with a premium engine and lowly VIN. Which one has more present value depends too much on the build of the vehicles to say.
My for instance. I have a 68 Hemi Dart. Unfortunately it's no longer a L023 car, but the entire drivetrain and suspension is from an original L023. It has been rebodied with an LH23 body. I figure it's worth about a third of real L023 body with a correct restoration. On the other hand how many 68 race Hemi's still exist. Most were blown up doing exactly what they were built for.
nitro_rat
Well-Known Member
The waters can be slightly more murky on '68 and earlier cars. For one, the hidden body numbers are the sales order number and not the serial number. So the fender tag and hidden body numbers will match but there's nothing on the car that verifies the serial number and the sales order number go together. If there is a surviving build sheet, that or an original window sticker will have both the serial number and the sales order number.
It has been possible in the past to obtain a copy of the factory IBM build card which also has these numbers for '67 and earlier cars through the Chrysler Historical Society. I am not sure what the status of that organization is now with all of the Stellantis BS going on. The records for '68 and up were destroyed in a fire decades ago so this isn't a possibility for 1968 models in particular.
Right. The point is there are no VIN numbers on the engine or transmission on pre 1968 vehicles. So even if all body numbers and fender tag numbers match the window sticker and any other factory data, no one besides the original owner and those he speaks to knows if a drivetrain is original to the car.
On the cars that didn't have the VIN stamped on the engine it is a non-issue. If the seller says it is the original engine that adds no real value. It's correct and that is all that matters.
nitro_rat
Well-Known Member
That is correct. It is time consuming and expensive to put together a "date code correct" early car from non-matching parts though. There are so many parts with casting numbers that it's difficult to find all the right stuff. And once you do, it's kinda as good as it ever was if you do it correctly. There probably is potential to put together a correct early car and have it be worth as much or nearly as much as a true original car. Whoever does it is definitely earning his keep though.
Finding a date coded correct carburetor for an otherwise complete car is one thing. But finding a block, heads, exhaust and intake manifolds, transmission, etc. ALL with correct date codes? It's a nightmare. I am keeping my eyes open for correct date coded parts for my '68 R/T but it's getting put together in the mean time with a motorhome 440 and whatever else it takes to make it run and drive. If I can ever come up with enough "correct" stuff to build an entire drivetrain, I'll tear it back down and redo the car 100% correct...
autoxcuda
Well-Known Member
To add detail on that...It still has to have appropriate dates and stampings (if possible) to be considered "correct"
nitro_rat
Well-Known Member
That's right. And sometimes the casting dates are pretty far off from the assembly date stamped on the engine. But all the casting numbers should precede the stamped assembly date. I've seen a block cast 13 months prior to the stamped assembly date.
The stamped assembly date is usually around the scheduled build date but not necessarily before it. I have seen the stamped assembly date of the engine be the day before the car was assembled. I've also seen the date the car was assembled be after the scheduled assembly date on the fender tag.
Basically the block could have been cast in December 15, 1966, engine assembled January 5, 1968, scheduled build date of January 3, 1968, and actually built on January 6, 1968...
Again, documentation like the IBM card, dealer window sticker, and broadcast sheet can go a long way to corroborate this stuff. Without the paper trail there's a lot left to mystery.
Point taken. I am all for originality if it's possible, but these cars were never intended as even a potential collector's item, rather, they were purchased (or intended) to race and were considered expendable to some extent. As in, "let's see what they come out with next year". Unfortunately all that was short lived, mostly due to regulations. So here we are today, some 60 years later trying to preserve what we can as opportunities present themselves. We all age out and no one can take the cars with them... so to those who survive us, realistic valuations of what we may leave behind are somewhat important. We'd hate to think any 50+ year old Mopar may be in a crusher after we're gone.
autoxcuda
Well-Known Member
Any car searching for higher level "correctness" will need date matched parts. Doesn't have to be an early 60's or early 70's. It doesn't always mean the car will increase in value the amount you paid for that date coded part. To many buyers, it doesn't matter.
And what matters is the overall level of the car. Meaning if you have an Macco cheap paint job in the wrong color on your 68 383 column auto Road Runner... a date coded starter added nothing to the selling value (an general appeal) to your car.
And what matters is the overall level of the car. Meaning if you have an Macco cheap paint job in the wrong color on your 68 383 column auto Road Runner... a date coded starter added nothing to the selling value (an general appeal) to your car.
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nitro_rat
Well-Known Member
I would also argue that a Macco cheap paint job on a complete correct numbers matching car might not necessarily make it less valuable than a nice professional job on a car that was completely cobbled together from miscellaneous junk. It definitely pays to pay attention to the small stuff if you're in in for the big money!
autoxcuda
Well-Known Member
We live in the present. What wasn't intended to be a collector's item is meaningless today.
Today they are collector's items. And there are features that determine value in the open market .
autoxcuda
Well-Known Member
That goes to overall quality. The added sum of what was done to the car.
Agreed, the purpose then has nothing to do with what some will pay now, due to rarity. Thanks to all for some good comments in this thread. We all have the appreciation for these cars and parts in common. In reality, since we all do live in the present, be it a "chassis" without "the" engine or vice versa, I suppose ultimately it's up to the purchaser to assign a value.
If you ever decide to sell a 65 car or engine parts, I would be interested.
Sometimes called Maximum Performance Acceleration Engine and stamped on the ID pad as MP.
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