Overheating has ME overheated!! 2nd Electric fan(s), I think it's not the fan or radiator

[biomedtechguy]

Git er done!

I got great news this evening, as there was concern about the space the new RXT dual disk clutch was going to take up, as positioning the hydraulic throwout bearing has been a unique challenge.
There are shims and a machined aluminum anti spin spacer that American Powertrain includes with the hydraulic throwout bearing conversion kit. The problem is the input shaft bearing retainer has a couple of "steps" on it towards the case of the transmission. The aluminum spacer and shims do not slide over the first step, and in my case (and others) the spacer alone takes up too much room, which prevents the TO bearing from being able to be spaced the ideal .150"-.200" away from the PP diaphragm springs. The solution was to machine the inner diameter of the aluminum spacer to allow it to move further back towards the transmission. If the new dual disk clutch and pressure plate were much thicker than the one disk unit, I would have a problem.
The great news is I wound up with .127" of clearance, and .100 is the minimum, so while not in the "ideal" range, it is going to work fine.
Once the 541 stroker is ready, I am going to switch to a blowproof bellhousing and block protector plate, so I can address the required space for the TO bearing in a different manner at that time.
I found a shop not far from the shop my car is that knows SPC and aftermarket suspension components that can do a final front end alignment. Thursday is the day, Friday at the latest. That works for me.

 

[beanhead]

 

[biomedtechguy]

I went on a fan rant in my Cruisin the Coast thread, but to update:
I had the original fan motor and a replacement burn out, and no one could understand why.
I found the small gauge battery ground wire to the negative post and a chassis ground wasn't grounded because only the black jacket was crimped in the eyelet termination, but none of the wire, so I sent a picture to the fan manufacturer and he, I, and others doing tech troubleshooting all thought SURELY that was the reason why the first 2 motors had burned up.
Fan motor #3 burned up about 15 minutes sooner than #2, which was about 15 minutes sooner than the original fan motor....
I wanted desperately to get my Roadrunner roadworthy enough to make Cruisin The Coast, and since I only have about 3" between the engine side of the radiator and the Wraptor serpentine belt and pulley system, I was limited on choice of mechanical fan. I got a thin 17" Derale flex fan, and I have good room between the front of the fan and radiator so I don't have to worry about the little front to rear movement of the engine destroying the radiator (like just happened in the GTO). It works fine at speeds over 35 MPH, but it definitely is not adequate for stop and go traffic or stationary idle. My first step is to try the electric fan shroud and see if it fits the flex fan. Once I find a shroud that fits, I will see how much cooler it runs at idle stationary, and go from there. I am inclined to go with 2x 10" or 12" high CFM pusher electric fans on the AC condenser, and I think that would cover all circumstances.
I don't think I'll ever trust only an electric fan to cool my car.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I placed an order today after much research and careful measurements.
The first thing I wanted to add may be the last thing I do, and that is a shroud.
I'll say that the Mopar fan shroud has a 20" opening, so I am pretty sure this 18" flex fan would still fit or the shroud can be tweaked to make it fit. I am going to try to use the shroud that came w/my unreturnable 17" electric fan, if it falls into place, even if I have to enlarge the opening slightly. I won't be running an electric fan as my main fan anyway after what I've suffered through, so I may as well get SOMETHING out of the $350 I spent on that DAMN electric fan and shroud assembly (IF the shroud works).
So I ordered the 18" version of the 17" flex fan I have:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-19118
And 2x 10" 797 CFM (each) SPAL electric pusher fans. They are the largest fans that will fit, have a good CFM rating, a great brand reputation, and a significant amp draw which usually means a better fan:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu-ix-30100320
I have 2 through the condenser mounting kits.
I have to drain and pull the radiator, again, but that is something I know well.
The parts come in tomorrow, Friday.
My Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan control module can handle both fans, and so will my current relays and circuit breakers. I am going to do a voltage drop test once they are hooked up to see if I have a problem there. That's the last electrical troubleshooting process I can think of.

 

[Derwud]

The Lesson I learned. ONLY SPAL electric fans... You also want a PMW fan controller..

 

[biomedtechguy]

The Lesson I learned. ONLY SPAL electric fans... You also want a PMW fan controller..

Thanks, and I agree regarding SPAL, although Derale makes quality fans, and possibly Flex-A-Lite after looking at HUNDREDS of cars at Cruisin the Coast that have electric fans, I saw a lot of SPAL fans, my mechanic told me from the time the topic came up that SPAL was THE brand to use. Italy and automotive products generally make for a quality result.
I am definitely going to check for a voltage drop in the wiring, and if I find one, I will do whatever I need to to fix that so I don't burn up these 2 fans. I really like having them as backup to each other, in case one fails the other may likely at least handle keeping the engine cool when idling/driving very slowly, if not the AC as well.
When I had overheating in the GTO, I discovered that the excess heat caused an overpressure condition in the AC system, so it's important that all of this work together.
The Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan control module is such a GREAT method to control electric fans, I don't need the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) controller, although those do ramp up current to the fan, helping to greatly reduce "electronic stress" on the system, I have 2x 70 amp relays and 2x 30 amp circuit breakers, so I have greater capacity than needed for the current (amperage) spikes that occur when a PWM controller is not used.

 

[Hemirunner]

Thanks, and I agree regarding SPAL, although Derale makes quality fans, and possibly Flex-A-Lite after looking at HUNDREDS of cars at Cruisin the Coast that have electric fans, I saw a lot of SPAL fans, my mechanic told me from the time the topic came up that SPAL was THE brand to use. Italy and automotive products generally make for a quality result.
I am definitely going to check for a voltage drop in the wiring, and if I find one, I will do whatever I need to to fix that so I don't burn up these 2 fans. I really like having them as backup to each other, in case one fails the other may likely at least handle keeping the engine cool when idling/driving very slowly, if not the AC as well.
When I had overheating in the GTO, I discovered that the excess heat caused an overpressure condition in the AC system, so it's important that all of this work together.
The Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan control module is such a GREAT method to control electric fans, I don't need the PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) controller, although those do ramp up current to the fan, helping to greatly reduce "electronic stress" on the system, I have 2x 70 amp relays and 2x 30 amp circuit breakers, so I have greater capacity than needed for the current (amperage) spikes that occur when a PWM controller is not used.

What gauge wire are you feeding those with and are we using relays?

 

[biomedtechguy]

What gauge wire are you feeding those with and are we using relays?

I am going to use wire at least as heavy as the fans are equipped with or heavier, and yes, it's the same power circuits that ran the 2 speed fan. 2x 30 amp breakers and 2x 70 amp relays.
I'm going to "review" the wiring, and, as I wrote, check for voltage drops (which I have not done before, especially at the 200 amp breaker)

 

[Hemirunner]

I am going to use wire at least as heavy as the fans are equipped with or heavier, and yes, it's the same power circuits that ran the 2 speed fan. 2x 30 amp breakers and 2x 70 amp relays.
I'm going to "review" the wiring, and, as I wrote, check for voltage drops (which I have not done before, especially at the 200 amp breaker)
View attachment 1014478 View attachment 1014479

So the relays feed the breakers and go into that large Relay??? I think I’m looking at that backwards... after looking further, I’d rip all that garbage out and start over. Those 10 cent crimp connectors are junk. No offense meant, but that wiring job leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[biomedtechguy]

So the relays feed the breakers and go into that large Relay??? I think I’m looking at that backwards... after looking further, I’d rip all that garbage out and start over. Those 10 cent crimp connectors are junk. No offense meant, but that wiring job leaves a lot to be desired.

Alternator feeds side post of battery/side post of battery feeds INPUT of 200 amp breaker/200 amp breaker feeds power (to some other things) and through 2x 30 amp breakers/breakers connect to 2x 70 amp relays. Each relay provides one power output to a fan.

 

[biomedtechguy]

UPS and Summit did a great job of getting my new 18" Derale flex fan and 2x SPAL electric fans to me overnight AM (10:30). Summit only charged $34 for the expedited delivery, and I am familiar with overnight rates, and that is one heck of a bargain.
I have to drain and remove the radiator, so I can get the 2 electric fans installed on the AC condenser. I determine the spacing for the fan based on the distance from the Wraptor pulley system anyway, the AC compressor clutch and belt tensioning arm being the farthest forward components.
Once I get the fans hooked up (the load in the circuit) I am going to do voltage drop tests. I am embarrassed to say I didn't think about checking voltage drops on the ground side of the circuit.
I am going to check each segment of the circuit.
THIS is a very good yet simple and concise guide to checking automotive voltage drops:

 

[Hemirunner]

Alternator feeds side post of battery/side post of battery feeds INPUT of 200 amp breaker/200 amp breaker feeds power (to some other things) and through 2x 30 amp breakers/breakers connect to 2x 70 amp relays. Each relay provides one power output to a fan.

30amps is enough to burn up anything attached to it but might be needed for the surge draw. Any idea what burned up the first two fans?

 

[biomedtechguy]

30amps is enough to burn up anything attached to it but might be needed for the surge draw. Any idea what burned up the first two fans?

THREE fan motors.
No, no idea. That is why I am going to do voltage drop testing. It is the only thing I didn't do that I think I should have the first time around, especially with my background in electronics and medical equipment repair. I was in a hurry, with Cruisin the Coast imminent, and I was counseling with the fan manufacturer.
We just "knew" that the small gauge battery ground wire termination not being connected to a major chassis ground point was the problem...I fixed that, then fan motor #3 burned up.
The 10" SPAL looks and feels like a quality fan, and fits like Plymouth designed it for my car. They are going side by side on the AC condenser.

 

[Hemirunner]

I’m no super sparky, but I did successfully wire my entire car and my Holley EFI. I learned a bunch along the way.
1. Avoid Splices if possible
2. Use an open barrel crimp connector to splice if you can’t avoid it
3. Insulate all splices with adhesive lined heat shrink tubing
4. Buy the appropriate crimp terminals to avoid using connectors and relay socket “pigtails” see rule 1.
5. Test everything. Tug test your splices then test them for continuity and voltage drops.
6. Use the best quality components and crimp tools possible to do the job properly.
7. junk the factory wiring as most is so old, it’s corroded and brittle
8. 30 Amps will burn up anything and even burn the insulation off most large gauge wire. (Learned that one by pinching a wire under a bolt! Doh!!)
9. Use appropriately sized fuses .. see rule 8
Good luck and I hope you get it all figured out.

 

[biomedtechguy]

Well, I won't set any speed records for my "auto mechanic" work, but then again, I don't rush my medical equipment repair work either (although that pays better).
I removed some stuff like my Thin Blue Line front license plate and the top horizontal panel that holds the hood spring, and the 2 front "turn signal" light holders. That way I had clear access.
Multiple measurements, several times paid off. The 2x 10" SPAL fans fit like factory equipment:

I didn't trust the plastic "split cap nuts" so I added a lock nut. It actually looks like the plastic caps were made for nuts to be added...

I used the rubber pieces on the fan side. Damn installation kits didn't come with installation instructions!

I am confident the fans aren't going to spontaneously detach.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I bought 14 gauge stranded wire in 2 colors, and some more heat shrink wrap (I believe in using that over crimped and/or soldered connections). I have female spade terminals for the fan pigtails, and that's all for today, at least for now. The flying teeth come out in swarms in the swamp at sunset, and my 6'3" legs are a open buffet table. The local car club I joined has its show tomorrow night from 4-8pm, so tomorrow I plan on wrapping this up, including the voltage drop tests, and then I'll look at a couple of things American Powertrain recommended to see why my clutch isn't disengaging completely.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I have posted about my fans etc in a couple of threads.
Long story short, the 2x 10" 795 CFM SPAL fans along with the 18" Derale low profile flex fan are the winning ticket, BY FAR, so far.
I and the mechanic who worked on my car knew the AC system would need more refrigerant. I had my car stationary, idle, hood open (reducing direct flow through the radiator, especially without a shroud) AC ON for about 25 minutes in midday temps. The SPAL fans are set to both run anytime the AC is on. The water temperature averaged 189° and I couldn't be happier, although if I can fit the stock shroud to the flex fan in an efficient position, that should just make what I've achieved better, if it only means reducing the time the fans run, or one fan running more often than both.
I used all of the existing wiring and relays and breakers, and my road trip temps were 183- 187. I will solder the crimped ends and heat shrink wrap them as I did the new ones I made.
I need this setup to work for the 541 stroker I have planned, so if my parameters for success seem extreme, I'm planning to put this setup to the test. I now have peace of mind in that my primary cooling system radiator fan is mechanical, but I have the significant benefit of the 2 rather powerful, "fit like Plymouth put them there" SPAL fans.
Now that the configuration seems to be settled, I also want to do something a little different for the flex fan spacer vs the washers I have to make it fit 100 vs 95 percent FLAT against the water pump pulley. I had to use the video mode of my camera to see the oh so slight wobble, and I want perfection.
So far, NO RESPONSE from Rex at Affordable Street Rods nor Sam, the owner of Cooling Components about my $1,000 I've spent on their advice to have ZERO fans from them that function. I asked for 2 fan motors so I can at least sell them to recoup some of my money.
Total voltage drop is 0.44 V so that is NOT the reason why the Cooling Components fan motors burned up!