Stock stroke 440 - Scrounging for power

[Yeahrightgreer]

While the motors out I think I’ll just add new rings and bearings. Take the car to the track, make a few passes and see where I can at. Based on that, may change the front tires from 245/60/R14s to M/T Sportmans radials and the rear to 275/60/R15s. Also some lighter wheels. The car has what looks like a 10” converter in it now so will then find a converter that matches the rpm range of the cam if it isn’t already.

Been staring at performance sheets of the trick flow heads and they do look like they give some great flow. Might just have to wait for a day where the Kit which includes all the gaskets, rocker arms shafts, cam and heads are on sale...

On the topic, is it worthwhile to switch to a roller cam configuration when I change the heads and cam? Or just stay with the flat tappet? I know trick flow makes a set of heads for both flat tappet and roller assembly.

750 holley is 2 small probably now.

What would do you think is suitable?

 

[Curiousyellow71]

While the motors out I think I’ll just add new rings and bearings....

On the topic, is it worthwhile to switch to a roller cam configuration when I change the heads and cam? Or just stay with the flat tappet? I know trick flow makes a set of heads for both flat tappet and roller assembly.



What would do you think is suitable?

You could run 850dp holley on your car now with potential to upgrade and make power later. Some of the race Holly's flow well into the 900s.
Chamfer the oil holes on the crank if they have not been chamfered yet and try for .0025 oil clearance on the rods if you can. Some people go tighter but keep in mind...it's not a sb chevy. With trickflow heads and a big solid or roller cam...put better rods in it NOW.
Solid vs street roller...I like rollers better past .6 lift for longevity. Under .6 lift the roller will be modestly better..depends on your goals and budget. On the street with a roller you need pressure lubricated roller lifters(imo crower or isky, both better then comp)..... for longevity. Splash oiled race lifters are meant for quarter mile passes...not endurance...but pressure fed cost more money yet....hydraulic roller cam...another option, Imo..learning curve is steeper.

 

[IQ52]

I've run both of these solid roller lifters in .600+" lift street engines for a very long time. The deal with them is you don't let the car idle in the driveway for 15 minutes so the heater can warm up the car for momma to drive to the grocery store.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-72421-16

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-829-16

So I guess you learn how to drive a solid roller cam street car, or spend $1,000 for roller lifters you really don't need.

 

[Curiousyellow71]

I've run both of these solid roller lifters in .600+" lift street engines for a very long time. The deal with them is you don't let the car idle in the driveway for 15 minutes so the heater can warm up the car for momma to drive to the grocery store.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-72421-16

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-829-16

So I guess you learn how to drive a solid roller cam street car, or spend $1,000 for roller lifters you really don't need.

Good point...the expensive ones fail too.

 

[Cranky]

Good point...the expensive ones fail too.

Everything mechanical fails sooner or later but you want it to last until later. Imo, never let an engine idle! All of mine got driven as soon as possible and that includes stock engines. Key is to run them somewhat gentle in cold weather for a short time. In warmer climates, same thing but the warm up time is usually shorter and most of my junk got a 195 stat in the winter time even here in the deeper south instead of a 180. As for engines with big cams, oiling at low rpm's usually hurts the springs because they get hot with low oil flow. The more you work the springs (bigger the lift, the more work they do), the hotter they get.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I've run both of these solid roller lifters in .600+" lift street engines for a very long time. The deal with them is you don't let the car idle in the driveway for 15 minutes so the heater can warm up the car for momma to drive to the grocery store.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/lun-72421-16

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-829-16

So I guess you learn how to drive a solid roller cam street car, or spend $1,000 for roller lifters you really don't need.

Always good to read your posts Jim...
I'm some time away, but your admonishment of hydraulic roller lifters has left me with 2 possible choices for my stroker MOPAR: flat tappet solid or solid roller lifters. Given the inherent power capability built in to a 540, just from the sheer size of it, and my relatively modest power goals, and the larger diameter of the AMC/MOPAR lifters, I'm thinking that the solid flat tappet lifters would be my best bet because once they're broken in, other than setting lash and then occasionally checking it, and using the appropriate oil, I'm good to go, and I wouldn't have to think about stop and go traffic stacking up for miles at Cruisin the Coast or any other venue. With the solid rollers, I'd not only have to still check lash, but I'd have to be concerned about the inevitable rebuild of the lifters, increased spring pressures, and the stress of all parts that interact with them. I'd also be worried about being caught too long in the "wrong kind of driving situation" and maybe I'm idling too long, etc etc...
So, would you please comment on that thought process please? Thanks.
When we had the Pontiac 421 rebuilt by my local engine builder (who I've known for a long time, and I know a lot of guys who had him build their short block) he recommended a CompCams hydraulic roller lifter and cam setup, and it's nice to not worry nor to have to adjust the valvetrain. That was "before Laroy" but still, I don't even think about the valvetrain in the Pontiac.

 

[dvw]

Ya I started out wanting a 10 second street car but found it to cost prohibitive and keep it streetable. I can't afford a $10-15k+ motor, plus $5-7k trans. I think Ill be all in my motor for about $5-6k when its all said and done. Which should still be fun on the street and relatively reliable...and thats where Ill be spending most of my time...

No need for a $5-7k trans. You could easily build one with an aftermarket drum for less than $1250 That would exceed your needs. Except for the block with used parts you could build a pretty decent motor for $6k. It'll take some shopping but it can be done.
Doug

 

[IQ52]

Always good to read your posts Jim...
I'm some time away, but your admonishment of hydraulic roller lifters has left me with 2 possible choices for my stroker MOPAR: flat tappet solid or solid roller lifters. Given the inherent power capability built in to a 540, just from the sheer size of it, and my relatively modest power goals, and the larger diameter of the AMC/MOPAR lifters, I'm thinking that the solid flat tappet lifters would be my best bet because once they're broken in, other than setting lash and then occasionally checking it, and using the appropriate oil, I'm good to go, and I wouldn't have to think about stop and go traffic stacking up for miles at Cruisin the Coast or any other venue. With the solid rollers, I'd not only have to still check lash, but I'd have to be concerned about the inevitable rebuild of the lifters, increased spring pressures, and the stress of all parts that interact with them. I'd also be worried about being caught too long in the "wrong kind of driving situation" and maybe I'm idling too long, etc etc...
So, would you please comment on that thought process please? Thanks.
When we had the Pontiac 421 rebuilt by my local engine builder (who I've known for a long time, and I know a lot of guys who had him build their short block) he recommended a CompCams hydraulic roller lifter and cam setup, and it's nice to not worry nor to have to adjust the valvetrain. That was "before Laroy" but still, I don't even think about the valvetrain in the Pontiac.

No matter what you chose you are going to be fine. I think you should run what gives you the most peace of mind.

 

[Mike67]

No need for a $5-7k trans. You could easily build one with an aftermarket drum for less than $1250 That would exceed your needs. Except for the block with used parts you could build a pretty decent motor for $6k. It'll take some shopping but it can be done.
Doug

Thanks Doug, I've scrounged everything together , buying secondhand/ new but unused parts and think I have a good foundation for the mill...the trans is a different story.
I have never messed with one other than fluid changes... I still feel there is voodoo and witchcraft that makes those work!!!
I respect and appreciate your knowledge and would love to learn more or get your counsel. I have a rebuilt 727 ( stock), just dont know what I really need to upgrade to support 500-600ft/lbs
Thanks

 

[biomedtechguy]

No matter what you chose you are going to be fine. I think you should run what gives you the most peace of mind.

Thanks Jim.
Eliminating hydraulic roller lifters, that would mean running with solid flat tappet lifters. Adjusting lash will be a new experience for me as I've never had to do that, but I'm not scared. I think that if the geometry of the valvetrain is spot on, with reasonable spring pressures and quality parts, the lash adjustment will probably be more of a checkup rather than a resetting experience. Quite a few people say that the parameters I laid out make for a very stable lash setting that doesn't change much if at all.

 

[Cranky]

Thanks Doug, I've scrounged everything together , buying secondhand/ new but unused parts and think I have a good foundation for the mill...the trans is a different story.
I have never messed with one other than fluid changes... I still feel there is voodoo and witchcraft that makes those work!!!
I respect and appreciate your knowledge and would love to learn more or get your counsel. I have a rebuilt 727 ( stock), just dont know what I really need to upgrade to support 500-600ft/lbs
Thanks

I'm beginning to think that rear end you brought me has some voodoo/witchcraft in it lol. The housing being made in Venezuela is a first for me!

 

[Mike67]

I'm beginning to think that rear end you brought me has some voodoo/witchcraft in it lol. The housing being made in Venezuela is a first for me!

Lol! Might have been easier to cut the new wheel well lip...

 

[Curiousyellow71]

Eliminating hydraulic roller lifters, that would mean running with solid flat tappet lifters. Adjusting lash will be a new experience for me as I've never had to do that, but I'm not scared. I think that if the geometry of the valvetrain is spot on, with reasonable spring pressures and quality parts, the lash adjustment will probably be more of a checkup rather than a resetting experience. Quite a few people say that the parameters I laid out make for a very stable lash setting that doesn't change much if at all.

Bio your build Imo is a good bushed roller pressure fed application if you decide roller vs flat tappet.. If you take the price out of the equation(Lol) there is peace of mind in knowing there are not a bunch of needle bearings getting run through a very expensive engine if a roller fails. On the street there is a higher chance of a roller giving up on any roller lifter: bushing or needle style. On a high end build with all the aftermarket internal parts that is going into your build.... to be driven often... I would have some "peace of mind" with the bushed roller lifters.. If it were mine I would spend the money and do the expensive bushed double fed crowers on the 540 six pack. But several companies offer the pressure fed bushed roller, so there are several options.

But for the op that started this thread with the stock block that likely gets some heads thrown on it... I would prefer the edm comps mentioned then a splash lubricated lunati on the street. I know lots of guys including myself have run the splash lubricated roller lifters on the street. But we used to not have the edm lifters as a option... But like cranky and Jim both mentioned lots of splash lubricated stuff has survived on the street....and I like the advice on how to make it survive.

 

[wyrmrider]

just an aftermarket drum and servos
EDM LIFTERS

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

Well...
after looking at the drawing board and looking at what the goals are for the car, it would end up being cost effective just getting a whole rotating assembly. Been looking at going up to an Eagle 493 Stroker, Trick Flow 240 heads, Harland rockers and shafts, keep the M1 intake and fully port it when I’m ready, and a Holley 950 carb. Still have to think about what cam I’ll run. Will surely be an interesting one

 

[wyrmrider]

get the rockers that B3 tells you work best with those heads
what rpm range usage gears
then pick compression and cam

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

get the rockers that B3 tells you work best with those heads
what rpm range usage gears
then pick compression and cam

With those heads and pistons looking at about 11.2 compression. 4:10 gears in it. Aiming for RPM range in between 6500-7000?

B3? Is that a member here?

 

[wyrmrider]

B3 racing engines go to website and read all four tech articles
4,25 stroker 2.2 pin 7.1 long rods
pistons for tight quench AND compression you want
so you must pick a target deck height
or square up the block first

 

[IQ52]

With those heads and pistons looking at about 11.2 compression. 4:10 gears in it. Aiming for RPM range in between 6500-7000?

B3? Is that a member here?

Really? 6,500-7,000 rpm? With that cubic inch size, 11.2:1 compression, those heads and a cam to operate in that rpm range you could be looking at something over 750-800 HP.

And why is that?

Because I'm looking at dyno sheet after dyno sheet that shows 720-765 HP between 6,500 and 7,000 rpm with a 451 ci stroker on pump gas! Do you really need that?

A well built street 493-496 can easily make 640 HP with less cylinder head..........below 6,000 rpm. Got those dyno sheets also.

 

[kbfallon]

Hmm...now, I have no experience here but will offer an opinion.
Forget about the 6-71. There are better and more compact blowers on the market. They just don't have the wow factor.
If you do supercharge ya better beef up the bottom end. And this is based on my brother's experience, don't use hypereutectic pistons. He has a blown LS engine in a Vette (he bought it that way) and his mechanic said not to pound on it too much or it will crap the bed due to the pistons. It did.
As your Satty sits now you need to tie the stubs together. In fact I would do this before putting it back together. Face it that is no spring chicken.
Imo a stout bottom end is money well spent. A decent set of heads a good streetable cam and an intake and carb will give you what you're looking for.
Keep us posted on what you decide and good luck.

As far as putting in some Frame Connectors.....Make sure the car if jacked up has the stands under the suspension pieces and not the frame....and Level. These older cars have a bit of flex in them and the connectors make a Huge difference.