Stock stroke 440 - Scrounging for power

[Yeahrightgreer]

Really? 6,500-7,000 rpm? With that cubic inch size, 11.2:1 compression, those heads and a cam to operate in that rpm range you could be looking at something over 750-800 HP.

And why is that?

Because I'm looking at dyno sheet after dyno sheet that shows 720-765 HP between 6,500 and 7,000 rpm with a 451 ci stroker on pump gas! Do you really need that?

A well built street 493-496 can easily make 640 HP with less cylinder head..........below 6,000 rpm. Got those dyno sheets also.

I definitely know it’d be a possibility to get into the mid to high 700 range if aimed that way. My thought process was leaving the intake unported, limiting the carb size, not running a spacer and a few smaller things so I’m in the low 600 range. And when I’m ready to get up to 700+ I make a top end switch with the bottom end already built (Which isn’t a RB block starting to push its structure limits in the 7-800 HP range?)

640 would be a hot little engine but would other heads be able to get up to the 600+ ft/lbs of torque like the Trick Flows? Would you like to share some of those dyno sheets?

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

What are y’all thinking about foreseen oil pickup issues?

 

[IQ52]

600+ lb-ft? Hmm, maybe....................okay yes.......

.040" overbore 440 block
ProGram 4-bolt mains
4.15 Eagle Crank
6.76 Eagle H-beam rods
Diamond dished pistons 10.3:1
Lunati 60333 solid roller 249/255 @ .050" .585/.600 lift with 1.5:1 rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM heads ported to 309 cfm @ .600"
Ported Edelbrock Performer RPM Dual Plane Intake
950 cfm Quick Fuel

As it was a street engine I was mostly impressed by the ported RPM dual plane. However we did other intake tests on the same engine.

Ported Torker II and a @ 2" HVH 4-to-1 spacer.................634 lb-ft @ 4,900 rpm, 650 HP @ 5,800 rpm & 643 HP @ 6,000 rpm. For some reason we never tested this combination beyond 6,000 rpm.

Plenum blended and gasket matched Victor w/ 2" HVH 4-to-1 spacer................629 lb-ft @ 5,000 rpm, 656 HP @ 5,900 rpm & 650 Hp @ 6,200 rpm.

 

[Challenger340]

600+ lb-ft? Hmm, maybe....................okay yes.......

.040" overbore 440 block
ProGram 4-bolt mains
4.15 Eagle Crank
6.76 Eagle H-beam rods
Diamond dished pistons 10.3:1
Lunati 60333 solid roller 249/255 @ .050" .585/.600 lift with 1.5:1 rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM heads ported to 309 cfm @ .600"
Ported Edelbrock Performer RPM Dual Plane Intake
950 cfm Quick Fuel

View attachment 918463

As it was a street engine I was mostly impressed by the ported RPM dual plane. However we did other intake tests on the same engine.

Ported Torker II and a @ 2" HVH 4-to-1 spacer.................634 lb-ft @ 4,900 rpm, 650 HP @ 5,800 rpm & 643 HP @ 6,000 rpm. For some reason we never tested this combination beyond 6,000 rpm.

Plenum blended and gasket matched Victor w/ 2" HVH 4-to-1 spacer................629 lb-ft @ 5,000 rpm, 656 HP @ 5,900 rpm & 650 Hp @ 6,200 rpm.

Geezuz Jim....
I don't mean to sound like a broken record.... but THAT is a really NICE frigg'in Engine ! GREAT Numbers !

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

600+ lb-ft? Hmm, maybe....................okay yes.......

.040" overbore 440 block
ProGram 4-bolt mains
4.15 Eagle Crank
6.76 Eagle H-beam rods
Diamond dished pistons 10.3:1
Lunati 60333 solid roller 249/255 @ .050" .585/.600 lift with 1.5:1 rockers
Edelbrock Performer RPM heads ported to 309 cfm @ .600"
Ported Edelbrock Performer RPM Dual Plane Intake
950 cfm Quick Fuel

View attachment 918463

As it was a street engine I was mostly impressed by the ported RPM dual plane. However we did other intake tests on the same engine.

Ported Torker II and a @ 2" HVH 4-to-1 spacer.................634 lb-ft @ 4,900 rpm, 650 HP @ 5,800 rpm & 643 HP @ 6,000 rpm. For some reason we never tested this combination beyond 6,000 rpm.

Plenum blended and gasket matched Victor w/ 2" HVH 4-to-1 spacer................629 lb-ft @ 5,000 rpm, 656 HP @ 5,900 rpm & 650 Hp @ 6,200 rpm.

Looks like a awesome build. What cc pistons did you go with? I’m assuming you run on 91/93 octane.

Sounds like a lot of guys enjoy the Lunati cams. I think I’ll have to call someone over there today and as for some help in getting a cam for my setup. Have manual brakes, manual steering, no A/C or anything so don’t have to worry about vacuum

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

After talking to Mike at Lunati, he made a recommendation of a custom grind. 263/271 @ .050 Duration .598/.620 lift with 1.5:1 Rocker. 110 LSA and 2° of advance.
Gonna think it over tonight and decide tomorrow

 

[IQ52]

After talking to Mike at Lunati, he made a recommendation of a custom grind. 263/271 @ .50 Duration .598/.620 lift with 1.5:1 Rocker. 110 LSA and 2° of advance.
Gonna think it over tonight and decide tomorrow

Are you planning on using the Trick Flow 240's with headers?

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

Are you planning on using the Trick Flow 240's with headers?

yes that’s the plan - I have a set of TTI headers for it

 

[wyrmrider]

I think you need to rethink
from Krooser's thread on fabo
getting better info in made a difference on the recommendation
this is for an alky W2 circle track build but the process is appropriate

Jones first cam suggestion

Cam# Chr360, M74375-77370-106
---------------seat .050 lobe 1.5
CM74375 --- 296° 250°.375″ .544″
CM77370-11 308° 255°.370″ .538″ note the additional duration but less lift for the exhaust, as it should be
250/255 @.050"
.375"/.370" Lobe Lift
106 LSA

Latest recommendation
Cam# Chr360, M76394-79378-106 Specials not in lobe list
254/260 @.050"
.394"/.378" Lobe Lift note the additional duration but less lift for the exhaust, as it should be
106 LSA

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

Do you think you can drop a link to the thread? You’re right, once more information starts to become available, it definitely changes the recommendation. Why do cams have to be rocket science? I’ll give you much of the information that I provided to Jones.

For reference I also reached out to Jones cams and compcams.

here’s Jones recommendation

Cam# D440, M74365-76364-112
244/252 @.050"
.365"/.364" Lobe Lift (.547/.546)
112 LSA
2500-6500 RPM Range
Lifter# J904MH
.904" Mech F.T. lifter set, w/.024" oiling hole in lifter face

And the Comps.

21-231-4
236/242 @.050”
.502/.511 Lift
110 LS
2200-6200 RPM Range

I don’t think the guy at comps understood the build that I was trying to go for, when I said street/strip. I plan to do a lot of no prep and grudge racing. So I’m fine if it’s not the most comfortable cam.

 

[IQ52]

I think we all ought to just pick a camshaft and never tell anyone what we may be doing. Because.......10 people will come up with 10 different ideas. All of them will work, some a little better'n others and if we don't spend $2,300 and test 6.57142 different cams we'll never know which was the best. S'why I list what I used with the results and never recommend a cam to anyone.

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

Motor will be a 512” stroker from 440 source. 7.10” rods w/ 2.200 journals
4.250 Stroke
4.350 Bore.
Compression aiming to be about 9.9:1.
27cc dish pistons.
Heads are gonna be the TrickFlow 240s with 78cc.
Intake is my M1 Performance Single plane, Unported
Rocker ratio is 1.5:1
Exhaust are headers. Don’t know the size per tube, will have to measure.
Carb will be likely a 950CFM 4bbl no spacer
Have not picked a converter yet, waiting on cam selection. Flash stall will be around 4-4,500.
Rear gears are 4:10
28” tall tires.
Car weight let’s say about 3800lbs.
Cam will be a solid flat tappet
RPM range, I’ll be setting my rev limiter at about 6500RPM so I don’t need power over that point.

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

I think we all ought to just pick a camshaft and never tell anyone what we may be doing. Because.......10 people with come up with 10 different ideas. All of them will work, some a little better'n others and if we don't spend $2,300 and test 6.57142 different cams we'll never know which was the best. S'why I list what I used with the results and never recommend a cam to anyone.

cam recommendations are like asking what’s everybody’s favorite motor oil....

 

[wyrmrider]

I'm not making a recommendation just that he needs to fine tune some, as others also pointed out

 

[biomedtechguy]

Bio your build Imo is a good bushed roller pressure fed application if you decide roller vs flat tappet.. I would have some "peace of mind" with the bushed roller lifters.. If it were mine I would spend the money and do the expensive bushed double fed crowers on the 540 six pack. But several companies offer the pressure fed bushed roller, so there are several options.

Perfect use of the banana dance gif lol!
That is an option I was unaware of, and since IQ52 has admonished using hydraulic roller lifters, I have crossed them off the list, because..well..Jim said so!

there is peace of mind in knowing there are not a bunch of needle bearings getting run through a very expensive engine if a roller fails.

THAT was the "horror story" I was concerned about, and the inherent danger of "idling too long" which is NOT something I want to ever have to think about, especially rolling in front of "my adoring fans" at Cruisin the Coast!
GREAT (new to me) info!
As far as the cost or availability of money to put in to compinents going in and on an aluminum block, I have to really be careful or I'm going to have to wait so long to complete the build, well let's just say I don't want all of that effort to mean someone gets a killer deal on an uncompleted 540 build because I died of old age...

 

[wyrmrider]

here we have comp at 10 degrees less than jones and Lunati at 20 degrees more
that's a huge spread
I was just looking at the Lunati with the 8 degree longer ex than the intake
usually do not need that much with today
(assuming intake duration is close which I think needs double checking also)
8 degrees
UDHarold maintained exhaust close was he most important event
and say opening ex 4 degrees later improves power and efficiency
BVVC

 

[Road Grabber]

I'd get a pair of Trick Flow 240s
a hyd or solid roller custom cam with a wider LSA
keep your intake and get a better carb
This combo should make 550-600 hp and get you in the 11s
Look for my build, Trick Flows on the 440....

I have been planning some modifications for my 6 Pack engine and ran into these 240 Trickflow heads viewing a 440 stroker build on Youtube. Since you mentioned the 6 pack, maybe you can provide some real insight for me. I do have the original stock 10:1 pistons and heavier duty rods. I was thinking about the Trickflow heads to reduce detonation and add horsepower. I tend to hesitate using the hydraulic roller setup on the street. Seems like more that can go wrong. I am not sure about the longevity of roller rockers for cruising and/or traffic. People have also mentioned extended idle problems with the hydraulic roller setup.The cam I use now is a Purple Shaft 284-484 cam that produces 11 vacuum and I was wondering if you consider your build just for the track or can be driven on the street. I like the numbers you have but wonder if the motor will last if HP increased at such a rate without changing my connecting rods or crank will handle the stress? Trickflow said they bolt their top end kit onto a stock engine. I am still getting advice on a cam for the engine given I want to get the most out of the extra flow but keep power brakes. I need at least 11 vacuum. Anything you can provide is much appreciated.

 

[biomedtechguy]

I do have the original stock 10:1 pistons and heavier duty rods. I was thinking about the Trickflow heads to reduce detonation and add horsepower.

Since you didn't mention it, I'll assume you have the 6 pak steel crank as well?
ARP rod bolts are what I've seen suggested numerous times, and if your budget dictates keeping the cost down, then just change those out to the ARPs, cheap insurance and peace of mind. That will take the weakest link out of the reciprocating assembly.
TrickFlow 240s on that engine are going to make a world of difference, and yes, they should be an improvement over iron heads regarding detonation.
I defer to those with more experience and knowledge as to how the combustion chambers of the TF 240s are going to affect your compression ratio, but if they raise it to 11:1 you should still be fine on premium pump gas.
I have what I and others believe is the 292°/.509 cam, it's definitely a purple stripe Mopar cam, and some have said the sound gives it away, but I stand on the performance as to why I'm as sure as I can be without actually knowing the specs of the cam. My 440 6bbl demands that I let it spin up to 6,200 max, and my shift light is set at 5,800, limiter set to 6,200. That all came into play when I replaced worn valve springs and iffy hydraulic FT lifters. I put in new stock pushrods, and Comp Cams hydraulic lifters, springs, locks, and retainers and where the engine used to feel like it was coming on to the first 1/3rd of some serious power, around 5,200 RPMs and then fell on its face because of valve float, well now it's a BEAST all the way to "redline" and I have to attribute that to the cam.
I can only imagine the improvement of the TF 240s, and those were going to be THE choice for me, no question about it, but I hope to build a stroker motor, and that has me looking at the 270s.

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

From the members in this forum as well as some research I decided to go with the TF240s. Considered the 270s but I think for my lower levels it’d be more than enough. Just like any heads that claim they can be run “out the box” there was a little shavings and some areas that need to be hand ported when we recurved them but otherwise they are pretty impressive.

After cracking open my block some of my rods were shot. I’m surprised there wasn’t a hole in the side of the the block. Goes to show you can’t trust an engine from someone else you’ve never been inside of... so i went with a 512” Stroker kit from 440Source. (block was already bored .30 over).

It’s crazy - I came to ask advice about making power out of a standard stroke and ended up going for a full rebuild!

 

[Yeahrightgreer]

I have been planning some modifications for my 6 Pack engine and ran into these 240 Trickflow heads viewing a 440 stroker build on Youtube. Since you mentioned the 6 pack, maybe you can provide some real insight for me. I do have the original stock 10:1 pistons and heavier duty rods. I was thinking about the Trickflow heads to reduce detonation and add horsepower. I tend to hesitate using the hydraulic roller setup on the street. Seems like more that can go wrong. I am not sure about the longevity of roller rockers for cruising and/or traffic. People have also mentioned extended idle problems with the hydraulic roller setup.The cam I use now is a Purple Shaft 284-484 cam that produces 11 vacuum and I was wondering if you consider your build just for the track or can be driven on the street. I like the numbers you have but wonder if the motor will last if HP increased at such a rate without changing my connecting rods or crank will handle the stress? Trickflow said they bolt their top end kit onto a stock engine. I am still getting advice on a cam for the engine given I want to get the most out of the extra flow but keep power brakes. I need at least 11 vacuum. Anything you can provide is much appreciated.

If you end up going for the trick flows, remember to get a new rocker arm set up with it. They state you can use factory rocker “STYLE” shafts and arms. Key word style. the heads are different enough you wouldn’t be able to use a stock set up.