Well, I've had enough of this 440 Mystery Motor

[moparedtn]

I have a channel on YouTube that documents some of my trials and tribulations with the car, including some from over 5 years ago with a previous engine.

Advance warning: my big ol' belly is on display on a couple of those as I work on the car, then with a different engine in it (mystery motor #1, also of unknown origin - came with the car and is now long gone).
Those were taken right after I got out of the hospital for the first of several cancer operations, so I ain't pretty - but I'm upright.

Anyways, there's some from last year and this year as I work on the current engine, swapping cams and heads and such.
There's also a thread on here (including a bunch of stuff on my Garage here) documenting the 906 head swap as well.

The YouTube channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/moparedtn/videos

Suffice to say, cam and lifters were broken in EXACTLY as Comp Cams instructions specified and the car acted all right for a while afterwards...
then the bent pushrod, then the 906 swap with new pushrods, etc.
Symptoms returned last weekend, as I said.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I've tried to follow proper procedures when working on the car - and it has worn me out literally - but I've never been into the block of the thing, so I can't comment on the construction of that part.

 

[moparedtn]

Poll added for audience participation!

 

[Beekeeper]

If the block checks out ok I vote rebuild.

 

[khryslerkid]

Did you inspect for oil getting to all of the lifters and rockers while doing a "priming" before initial start up?

 

[mopar 3 B]

BINGO!
Exact same symptoms.
Yep, I already guessed the same with the cam bearing thing.
Has to be, since that's where the oil comes from for valvetrain parts, right?
View attachment 382173

Only problem with the oil flow diagram it is not right. Most of the oil flow is backwards. But yes the cam bearing holes need to aline for proper cam oiling.
But do the cam lobes not get lubed from by pass oil off the lifter bores? I have never seen any oil ports from the cam bearing that would lube the lobes of the lifters. Also if the cam bearing have been installed wrong it should have been quite apparent when removing the first cam as the cam should had shown high temp burn marks indicating bearing failure from not have lubricant. Just my thought on the matter.

 

[mopar 3 B]

Cam lobes get lubed from return oil off the rockers and valve train threw the block drain ports above the cam. Question have the rocker shafts been installed correctly the oil holes need to be downward and angled towards the valves. If not no oil for lobe lube. Also installing the #4 main bearing upside down will prevent top oiling.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

Couple things to consider. Keep your block if the serial numbers are importamt. You may want to shop around for a crate engine. Those are ready to bolt in and have a guarantee if they are a reputable company. And may not be higher priced than rebuilding you engine. If it were me, and I didn't have a lot of experience with Mopar engines, I would have a mopar guru tear it down and know exactly what your problem is.........................MO

 

[moper]

Some interesting ideas here...
Was it the same lobe on the cams that went bad, or different ones?
What valve springs were on the 906s when you put them on?
The cam lobes themselves are not lubed at all by any pressurized oil. They are primarily splash fed from the bottom by oil coming off the rotating assembly. The lifters are fed pressurized oil to maintain the lash, and to oil the lifter in it's bore allowing it to rotate. If the lifter stops rotating, it will wear off in no time. The reason rpms are so important in cam break in is to get the oil flinging up in good volume. The holes for drainback may get lucky and get some oil on lobes, but it's only by accident.
Next question is when you replaced the heads, did you use the starter to spin over the engine in order to get oil pressure and prime the carb?
At any time did you verify lifter rotation?
Cams fail for a variety of reasons. It's not manufacturer in the vast majority of cases. Your block may have a lifter bore alignment or wear issue, or a cam bore alignment issue that makes one or more lobe more susceptible to fail. It might have been something from the head replacement that got into the lifter bore that stopped it from rotating. Or lack of oil when you restarted it.

Regardless I think careful teardown and reuse of what you have is probably the cheapest and best option. But have someone that does this sort of thing inspect it and move you forward. There are builders, and assemblers. You need a builder.

 

[moparedtn]

Only problem with the oil flow diagram it is not right. Most of the oil flow is backwards. But yes the cam bearing holes need to aline for proper cam oiling.
But do the cam lobes not get lubed from by pass oil off the lifter bores? I have never seen any oil ports from the cam bearing that would lube the lobes of the lifters. Also if the cam bearing have been installed wrong it should have been quite apparent when removing the first cam as the cam should had shown high temp burn marks indicating bearing failure from not have lubricant. Just my thought on the matter.

Yeah, the little arrows look backwards to me also, but I think the passages shown are correct.
Beats me.

Interesting, to say the least.

 

[moparedtn]

Did you inspect for oil getting to all of the lifters and rockers while doing a "priming" before initial start up?

Nope.

 

[moparedtn]

Question have the rocker shafts been installed correctly the oil holes need to be downward and angled towards the valves.

Yes.

 

[moper]

The oil flows from the oil pump up to the right (passenger) side lifter galley. From there it goes over to the left (drivers) gallery via the #1 cam bearing and down to the main bearings, then up to the cam bearings. The oil from the #4 cam bearing also feeds both sets of rockers when the respective holes line up during rotation. That diagram is back asswards.

 

[moparedtn]

Couple things to consider. Keep your block if the serial numbers are importamt. You may want to shop around for a crate engine. Those are ready to bolt in and have a guarantee if they are a reputable company. And may not be higher priced than rebuilding you engine. If it were me, and I didn't have a lot of experience with Mopar engines, I would have a mopar guru tear it down and know exactly what your problem is.........................MO

Mid-70's block, as I said. Numbers matter not.
For what I'm seeing on pricing from a couple sites (and nobody has said boo about CME yet, I notice - although a friend did find an old thread on here about them, in which all replies were actually favorable), it would be hard to rebuild one for the price.

 

[moparedtn]

The oil flows from the oil pump up to the right (passenger) side lifter galley. From there it goes over to the left (drivers) gallery via the #1 cam bearing and down to the main bearings, then up to the cam bearings. The oil from the #4 cam bearing also feeds both sets of rockers when the respective holes line up during rotation. That diagram is back asswards.

Yeah, the little flow arrows appear basswards for sure.
Only thing I CAN say for sure on this engine is that the oil pressure makes it to the little outlets at the top most rear of the block, where I have the gauge sending unit installed in one and my mechanical gauge installed in the other.
Engine has decent oil pressure, anyways.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

Lots of good advice in here.

I can understand why you are disheartened.

I would add - make no decisions on what way to go forward until this engine is removed, disassembled and inspected to find the ongoing cause of your problem. (My bet is improperly installed cam bearings.) Rebuilding what you have got may still be the easiest and most economical way forward.

 

[Ski 61701]

Ive been watching this thread and I understand the OPs frustration with things, I think we all have been there done that a few times.
Here is something that I do on all the motors that I have put together over the years, its time consuming but Ive never had a cam go flat either. Since you have to diagnose things, once you pull the timing chain cover off, I'd remove the cam and lifters making sure not to get the lifters mixed up, clean everything off with brake clean. Get a dental mirror and look at the cam bearings to make sure they are ok. Also look at the bottom of the lifter bores to make sure there is nothing funky going on there. If ok, reinsert the clean cam, just put a little oil on the journals. Spin the cam to make sure it spins ok. Your nice clean lifters, spray them down with wd 40 or something really light weight. This is only for checking things, youre gonna take this apart in the near future for final installation. With the lifter lightly coated they should drop straight down with no resistance. If they dont, you might have to run a small brake hone to dress the lifter bore. Ive been able to do this by spinning the hone with my fingers, you dont want to open the bore any more than necessary.
With the lifter in its place, make a mark on the top edge of the lifter (witness mark) and turn the cam clockwise. You are going to have to turn the cam several times, what you are looking for is to make sure the lifter rotates in its respective bore, if it doesnt spin, it will cause problems we all know this. eg flat cams.
I check this when I build a fresh motor, Ive spent hours swapping lifters from bore to bore cleaning things up to make sure they ALL spin the same amount. On a used cam you are pretty much stuck, but like I mentioned it is time consuming, and if things dont spin with this cam and lifters you might be looking at a new cam and lifters, or at the minimum new lifters.
If everything spins, take it all apart reclean and reinstall cam putting some high pressure grease on the lobes. The lifters, I put just a small dab of hp grease on the face and a light coating of oil on the sides and run it home. Once my timing marks are set, I pull the distributor and hex gear and get my oil pump priming shaft on and get a speed wrench to build up oil pressure. After I do this pop the distributor back in line everything up and usually within a half crank the motor is up and running.
Best of luck with this project, you'll get it figured out.

 

[moparedtn]

Lots of good advice in here.
I can understand why you are disheartened.
I would add - make no decisions on what way to go forward until this engine is removed, disassembled and inspected to find the ongoing cause of your problem. (My bet is improperly installed cam bearings.) Rebuilding what you have got may still be the easiest and most economical way forward.

It may well be, thanks.
Question is - will I ever be able to trust it even if it all checks out and gets rebuilt properly?
That answer lies between my ears more than anything else.

 

[62 Dart Convertible]

It may well be, thanks.
Question is - will I ever be able to trust it even if it all checks out and gets rebuilt properly?
That answer lies between my ears more than anything else.

I can't see why not, but it will be answered when you have found the problem...

Disappointment/stress can cloud your vision. Your engine is not cursed (like Christine lol), it just has a problem that has not been found yet...

 

[moparedtn]

A little history on this particular engine can be found in some of my old threads on here, like the time the purpleshaft wiped lobes and ate lifters:
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/collapsed-lifter.93103/

Subsequent cam replacement:
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...p-cams-magnum-270-sounds-like-in-a-440.93496/

A bent pushrod and stuck valve later, replacement of the 516 heads with fresh from the machine shop 906's:
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...lls-a-fresh-set-of-906s-on-the-ol-440.117561/

Look, it's like this, fellas...
I've spent so much time on this car and it's been a labor of love as much as it's been pure friggin hell at times. A lesser man would have never started this project, really, the car started out sooooo far gone that it would have been more a parts car for most folks. Check out my Garage on here and you'll see how bad she was to begin with.
On top of that, I didn't think I'd be allowed to stay around long enough to even try another Mopar to begin with, honestly - I've clinically "died" three times already and came damn near close again with the third bout with cancer.
When I came out the other end of that, the GTX became my therapy.
As I started to pick myself up off the bed, I started to pick her (the GTX) up with me.
I figured what the hell, neither one of us has any right to still be here anyways, let's try it one last time, right?
I asked the man upstairs to allow me to survive 5 more productive years so I could pay off all the medical bills and leave my wife in decent financial shape - and to see this car back to proper life, so she wouldn't be stuck with a pile of shiny parts in the garage to deal with once I was gone.

So that's the deal.
The GTX has been resurrected to a point where everything on it works/has been replaced and she's not perfect, but presentable at least.
This engine issue is the last of it as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not afforded the luxury of dreaming of my retirement years cruising in her, I know.
I just want to see this through - to see her done, you know?

 

[moparedtn]

I can't see why not, but it will be answered when you have found the problem...

Disappointment/stress can cloud your vision. Your engine is not cursed (like Christine lol), it just has a problem that has not been found yet...

Ok, I'll cancel the appointment with the Exorcist on your good counsel.