What can be done with this 440 on the cheap?

[wyrmrider]

I would not buy a new XE256H for a Chrysler- it's for Chevy's but since you have it it approaches the intake closed point to build dynamic compression requirement Intake Closes 54.5 ABDC at .006 - much better than the stock MOPAR cam
so use it with the correct springs- maybe beehives check your retainer/keeper to stem seal clearance- usual stuff
you could stick some 1.6 rockers on the intakes and have a .478 intake open
to start I'd keep the stock manifold and carb- It's actually a very good carb for what you want to do- but then I raced lots of them
new timing chain and some headers
spend the money on the bellhousing- there are several ways to do that, and your headers
get it on the road and start thinking about heads later - your motor home heads- you could blend the bowls yourself
but new heads is a much bigger project what with new rockers etc-- U can use IQ's flow numbers for the time being
already have the 3:91s?
A .904 optimized grind would give you .475 to 461 intake lift at that 256 duration with 1.5 rockers and bigger at .200 but the 1.6 rockers do about the same thing
you need to spend some time on the dist curve-- IQ can guide you there
just do not try and do too much all at once
drive it while you look for an aluminum dual plane- lots of mag articles showing which ones work

 

[rumblefish360]

I would not buy a new XE256H for a Chrysler- it's for Chevy's

OMG! Stop it already!

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I seriously thought about that route. If I could’ve done the fab myself, you’re see on in my car right now.

You're overlooking a centrifugal s/c setup for $3,200 that Paxton sells. I would run an extreme velocity carb hat, so wouldn't order the complete version:
part #: 1201860-1

Anyways, Turbo fab is easy, do a rear mount setup, a simply Y-from manifold into a 2.5" pipe to the T-6 (or two 2" pipes into twins). You can mount a separate oil tank in the rear with a cooler. Nearly all of it can be done at the exhaust shop. It's everything else on pump-gas that isn't simple, as cylinder distribution is very poor on most of our intakes unless going the MPFI route. The Super Sniper EFI system (1,250HP version) is what I would run if I could do it over again today. They all eventually go, and the first engine built is usually a test run. Mine lasted four years until the #4 piston cracked pulling out of the driveway. My friend Randy (identical combination) went through 2-crankshafts and 2-pistons (both #4) with the same intake (Victor 440) before he got it right in that same 4-year timeframe, ended up running mid-10's off the trailer on very low-boost (7-8psi) the first time out. He went to EFI shortly
after so I'm not even sure how quick he is running now, haven't been on the turbo forums in awhile.

 

[rumblefish360]

I don’t know the full scope, but here is food for thought:
http://www.torqstorm.com/kits_single_big-block-mopar.html

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I don’t know the full scope, but here is food for thought:
http://www.torqstorm.com/kits_single_big-block-mopar.html

Another option. Just not sure how great the head unit is for 440 - 512ci, that would be my concern.

 

[rumblefish360]

Another option. Just not sure how great the head unit is for 440 - 512ci, that would be my concern.

The Torqstorm? I don’t know ether but the do have some press and engine builds in various mags a few being a small block.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

OMG! Stop it already!

It's funny to me when people talk about .904-lifter specific camshafts. An engine is an air-pump, configure any Ford / Chevrolet / Mopar engine extactly the same (displacement / air-flow) with identical camshafts (other than supposed advantages associated with lifter diameter) and there will be little to no difference in HP/TQ production. I would say most production Chevrolet and Ford Cylinder heads took any, and all advantages over our .904-lifter design (until Trick Flow showed up). Fords and Chevrolets have had great roller lifters (OEM in many cases) for years which obviously provide much greater valve lift per given duration, so while we were destroying aftermarket non-oem roller lifters in our non-roller blocks, they were running hydraulic roller grinds with .650+ lift without any issue. For anyone interested in learning, check out UDHarolds internet postings (Harold Brookshire - Ultradyne) about camshaft development / engineering.

If everyone watched engine masters, there jaws would drop knowing something as simple as a mechanical, non-clutch driven fan costs north of 30-hp over 5,000 RPM over an electric fan. Those tiny 9" diameter chrome air cleaners that cost 100+ hp that are on hundreds of street-rods at the shows. These are the places I would look at 'freeing up' horsepower rather than talking about .450-.500 lift camshafts which may be in variance of 5-15 horsepower from the best to worst in that given lift / duration range.

Let's look at 1971 to 1972, we seen the 440 six-pack lose 55 hp / 80 ft/lbs of torque by adding basic accessories like the air cleaner, exhaust system, fuel pump, and ignition system (gross to net). It obviously wasn't because these engines lost a quarter-point of advertised compression (in some cases two-points). The best thing anyone can do is install a good A/F gauge, tune the carburetor (to the best of their abilities), free-flowing exhaust system, electric / clutch driven fan, and a good air-filter. Even the dual-snorkel air filter is a proven restriction above 400-hp. Single snorkel, restrictive above 300-hp.

Great article, take a very close look at figure (3). 375hp was derived on a dyno-mule after hundreds of hours of dyno run time. Shaved heads to get to the advertised compression ratio and other small tricks. From a Chrysler engineer.
https://www.greenval.info/horsepower---fact-or-fiction

 

[rumblefish360]

What is even funnier is those supposedly marketed cams that are supposed to take advantage of the .904 lift still fall short of actually taking advantage of the lifters diameter. Even the MM lobes by Comp Cams which someone here said is “The Love” to do this is NOT the most aggressive cam love offered or the one to take advantage of the .904 lifter.

What else is not always listed is the fact of the matter that some of these so called .904 advantage taking cams not only are BOT taking advantage of the diameter but are also wrecking cable trains with less experienced hands.

Anyone can cry out “It’s a Chevy lobe!” in any cam except the actual cam that can not be used in a Chevy (small stock lifter only here) or the one that doesn’t fully take full advantage of the Chrysler .904 lifter. Which is almost exactly every other cam live in the book.

If you actually take advantage of the .904 lift, I say, welcome to race cam Territory! Enjoy the lope! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

 

[Paul_G]

So let's say I use that cam I have, leave the heads alone, buy a set of TTI headers, reuse the intake and carb, rebuild the carb if it needs it which it probably will. What kind of power and torque should I expect from the engine in that configuration?

The 360 in the car now is pretty strong It makes about 300 horse at the crank , 255 horsepower at the wheels on a chassis Dyno last month at the Hemi show in Phoenix.
So I have to weigh the cost of this 440 build along with the conversion, versus the power it's going to put out. It makes no sense to go through this if it's not going to do much better than the 360.

 

[wyrmrider]

Let's cut to the chase
Howards profiles take more advantage of the big chrysler lifter then Lunati's then Comps and Engle and much more than Cranes older profiles
Roller will be better but a 904 HFT gives a hyd roller a run for it's money but to get a real advantage you have to find a roller with an inverse lobe
a flat flank roller lifter cannot match a solid profile
you want unbiased advice go here
http://jonescams.com/street-performance/
about another $100 for the cam but the advice is well worth it

OP get the short block back together, intake and carb are easy changes later, do the tuning
what you want to do is see what your throttle response is in OD with about a 3:1 overall ratio given a 3:91 in the rear
do you have to shift down to go up even little hills?
any flat spots- how's it drive if you an give up some torque you can go to a bigger lobe- no one likes a boggy drive
of course you could just run in direct all the time and have all the punch

 

[Paul_G]

Let me explain. The motor home 440 is still together in factory original condition, carb to oil pan, radiator fan to trans yoke. Looks to have never been apart, It's sitting on the floor in my garage as we speak. I put a scope in each cylinder, they look fine, All the plugs look good, just sooted up. This engine will run as it is. I am going to oil down the cylinders, turn the oil pump and pre lubricate the engine, then do a compression test this week. I expect it to run as it is.

My question is with just the cam change using the cam I have,
http://www.compcams.com/(S(4zffrf2i...mpany/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=705&sb=0
And reusing the heads, intake, and carb, along with TTI long tube headers, what kind of power should I expect?

 

[Sweet5ltr]

So let's say I use that cam I have, leave the heads alone, buy a set of TTI headers, reuse the intake and carb, rebuild the carb if it needs it which it probably will. What kind of power and torque should I expect from the engine in that configuration?

The 360 in the car now is pretty strong It makes about 300 horse at the crank , 255 horsepower at the wheels on a chassis Dyno last month at the Hemi show in Phoenix.
So I have to weigh the cost of this 440 build along with the conversion, versus the power it's going to put out. It makes no sense to go through this if it's not going to do much better than the 360.

Honestly, your 360 already makes nearly identical rear-wheel horsepower as a typical bone-stock low-comp 440; possible more. With a good torque converter, intake, carburetor, and exhaust system; you'll likely see 300 rwhp without touching the heads. For the price of the TTI exhaust system, you could easily run Hooker 1 7/8" long tube headers, Lunati Camshaft Part # 0230703LK, Performer RPM intake manifold, and a Double Pumper carburetor. This will put you at 320-340 rwhp at the very least. Expect to sell the 360 to fund the 440 if you plan to build and are on a budget.

Don't even waste your time scraping off the original gaskets with that specific camshaft profile (XE256H), you won't see anything worthwhile. Not worth the cost or effort.

You don't want just any generic fast-rate camshaft. As I stated before, read up on Harold Brookshire (Ultradyne) unsymmetrical lobe designs. Very gentle on the valvetrain, like OE. His camshafts live on through Bullet Racing and the Lunati Voodoo series.

 

[wyrmrider]

Agree with most of what Sweet says but you already own the 256 Comp and lifters and a voodoo is a couple of hundred dollars
(and IMHO with a 3.0 final drive and 7.5 :1 compression you need a 268 cam like you need a big soft pillow)
you can get .484 lift with the 253 or 258 Voodoo and 1.6 rocker but I'd like to see a benchmark first
Think of what your RPM will be cruising down the highway what is it now with the 360
do go with the long tubes
As I said early on Lunati is one of the few with short shelf cams For Mopars
As for Harold Berkshire he never got around to doing Hydraulics for MOPAR as far as I know- we lost him way too early
Today the best you can get is from Mike Jones
you can look for a Performer at swap meets as for a carb I would not want a double pumper unless more racy- especially with a 3.0 final drive
your TQ will work fine
Do read IQ's threads
get it on the road then make one change at a time
Here's something to shoot for cam wise (for later) the Howard [email protected] lobe gives you .475 lift with 1.5 over .500 with 1.6 and 126 @.200
keep your eye on and find out what the 200 duration are with suspect cams- most at .200 least at .006
No way do I want to close my intake 8-10 degrees later for no benefit (at least we're not talking chevy cams here)

 

[BSB67]

So let's say I use that cam I have, leave the heads alone, buy a set of TTI headers, reuse the intake and carb, rebuild the carb if it needs it which it probably will. What kind of power and torque should I expect from the engine in that configuration?

The 360 in the car now is pretty strong It makes about 300 horse at the crank , 255 horsepower at the wheels on a chassis Dyno last month at the Hemi show in Phoenix.
So I have to weigh the cost of this 440 build along with the conversion, versus the power it's going to put out. It makes no sense to go through this if it's not going to do much better than the 360.

It s bad enough comparing actual dyno results let alone people's opinions on dyno number on a theoretical basis.

But I will give an opinion. Take an old used low compression 440 and add headers, it will be a disappointing turd.

If I had a car already set up for a big block, was sitting in my garage without an engine in it, and someone gave me that 440, I still would not put it in the car as you describe.

 

[wyrmrider]

The question should not be how much hP will it make but how much torque 2000 (or stall)-4000 the 440 will out torque the 360
HP can wait , cam can wait till he can find some heads (and pistons) within his budget
headers much less of a turd than without the motorhome manifolds most likely are usable on the passenger but interfere with the steering on the drivers B-E manifolds are not so hard to find I have about 3 sets going to Spring Fling this weekend
I would think with the motorhome valves they will be in good shape and just take a little touch up, he has hard seats check the guides, new seals, maybe new HP springs
dino estimates ask IQ
you could also use a sim program
what you will find out is if you try for HP you will loose the low end and not make much more on the top end- till you do a whole motor- so build it to move a 4000lb car with a 3.0 rear end
There is a reason that Duntov liked big block automatics in his corvettes

 

[1967coronet]

Paul_G, I am pretty much in the middle of just what your doing for my 67 with 3:23 , 727 trans. Motor home 440 mine is a 1976 with 30k on it, clean and bright inside, looks great, I did measure the piston to deck with a dial indicator mine are 142 thou below. lol.
452 heads stone stock, I just added new seals since they were off the engine and at the same time lapped the valves lightly and clean them up. I emailed Howards 2 weeks ago through their own link on their sight about some help in picking a cam. Never yet got a reply back mabey their internets down or their tired messing with low comp engine questions. oh well.
In the meantime several good guys on here gave me some good ideas and advice. I am not a cam guy I don't know or understand all the ins and outs to picking one from another so I went on comps web sight and entered my engine specs , I guessed my compression at 7.5.1 from reading other posts on here.
added a dual plain intake and 750cfm carb with small tube headers on their online crystal ball dyno. It picked out 6 or 7 cams that should work decent, the 1st one I settled on was their 21 - 215 - 4 model 454/454 lift 218/218 dur at %50 110 LSA. ordered it and its out of stock until June so I picked another out of their cams they suggested, 21- 222-4 462/470 lift 218/224 dur at %50 and the same 110LSA. their online guesstimate dyno shows 318HP and 462TQ with what I am bolting on this turd the tq. is at 400lbs by 1800 rpm and stays over 400 to the 4,000rpm mark the 462 shows up aprox 3000rpm .
I am going to give it a try, my old 383 has a rattle down low and needs to come out for a rest. If this cam does not work well I will use it in the 383 once I rebuilt it. Who knows what it will end up at as far as real numbers but that's half the fun of this stuff.
Its a $200 gamble on the cam and lifters. The springs, chain and gears will work with another if needed the fun part is I will be all in for $1,200 to $1,300 including the engine purchase.
Go for it, pick a cam break it in go mash the pedal. I hope we both get lucky.

 

[wyrmrider]

XE262 H intake closing 57ABDC only a couple of degrees different than the 256 Paul G has - should work Dynamic Compression is 6.8:1
but you are still giving up torque to say a voodoo
you got lucky on the out of stock 268 cam Intake closes 60 ABCD - and yes you can feel 3 degrees out of stock- you mean they do not grind their own catalog cams I'm shocked SHOCKED
too bad they do not make a HL cam in the duration range these low compression motors need
They have a lobe that's 254 @.006 with .467 lift and another that's 258 with .476 lift and their MOPAR 262 duration lobe has .482 lift ([email protected]) did they suggest these?
what else did they suggest?
you can throw some 1.6 rockers on that 262 cam intake
report back I hope both of you get lucky
spending a little time blending the bowls pays off
let us know what your compression is- before and after the cam swap if possible

 

[mopar 3 B]

What real funny is every time someone ask what can be done on the cheap. Ends up involving thousands of dollars and hundreds of extra hp. We all like to dream. Then reality sets in.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

What real funny is every time someone ask what can be done on the cheap. Ends up involving thousands of dollars and hundreds of extra hp. We all like to dream. Then reality sets in.

We don't live in the 70's anymore, can't pluck brand-new 440's out of the neighbors driveway for $100. Cheapest power is what some of us described above, not running a fixed mechanical fan, quality oil & filter, new plugs & coil, dual snorkel air cleaner base with a Wix or similar high-flow air filter, and a free flowing 2.5" dual exhaust system. That will get this engine closer to its original gross rating.

Will it really be 'that' much better than his current 360 is the question? Can't really answer that one.

 

[wyrmrider]

agree
I tried to focus on the "on the cheap" title of the thread
use what is in hand- I'll even close my eyes and use a chevy cam
defer buying anything till you get a baseline
I followed my friends at TMS Propane Performance working with MOPAR powered transit busses
low compression
they worked with several cam designers and first thing found was the stock 440 cam was way NOT INTENSE
burning up the center two exhaust valves even the Inconel ones (actually the seat area) (been through this before with the sodium cooled 413s)
the design of the head allows the intake flow to not only go around the cylinder wall but to flow directly out the exhaust valve while being pulled in during overlap
newer designs "swirl" away from the exhaust or "tumble" down the cylinder
working with Potvin/ Moon cams they finally went back to an Industrial 361/413 duration of around [email protected] on a .904 master- I saw Bill Jenks hand stoning the master
EGT went down 800 degrees with this cam and the piston design currently sold by KB (compression actually up)
For lighter Class A motorhomes you could go up to the [email protected] range and more in lighter vehicles but not much with a tall axle ratio
This work was funded by Ma Mopar- One Transit fleet was San Jose who rebuilt all of their engines. (We had stacks of warranty take outs) EGT down mileage up what's not to like
Speed-O Motive Dyno and machine shop was utilized- multi year project
nothing new here - 413s and 440s were still being sold- unfortunately this research never made it into production
I put one of those 192 profiles in an AMC 258 6 cyl jeep- a real rock crawler but outran the stock cam on the road too ended up with about .420 lift- back when a stock 413 4042000 cam had .410 (available as SP CS-665 or Dana 229-1663) the .430 lift 4041998 came later)) and an Edelbrock performer today has .420