Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
Here are some more. It looks like the rod cap bolts were peened over. Is this typical? Cam wiped like we already knew but I don't see anything else wrong.
What to do?
- Thread starter Bicylindrico
- Start date
Well, unless you did an awful lot of cleaning, that motor is very clean inside. No sludge build-up that I can see. Even looks like you can still see the cross hatch in the bores. I'm guessing someone changed the cam and didn't heed warnings about zinc and correct break-in. I'd replace those expandable freeze plugs with brass cups, check the bearings, clean everything well and carry on... BTW, I don't see how the compression could be less than 10:1 with those domed pistons... JMO. As a rule you don't peen the ends of the rod bolts...
niteshift70
Well-Known Member
Looks very much like improper break in on the cam. There is one other problem that can cause large sections of the cam to wipe like that but I don't see any evidence of that. I purchased a 69 buick lesabre two door to build for my wife. Tore down th engine, and found that both heads were cracked above the lifter valley. Coolant had run down the sides and kept the oil washed off the cam. Every single lobe had wiped, and it still ran, good too!
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
I think you are both correct. The engine is very clean and low use after build and I too think the cam change was something that took place after the initial build (with the roller chain setup/key-way sprocket) and was improperly broken-in. Unfortunately, I ended up finding 3 scores in #6 cylinder that are having me pull everything apart and sending out for clean-up. Sucks as every other cylinder looks great. I will post pics of the damage.
The rods look to be the standard though I don't have the part number in front of me. Looked like there were the standard and then there were the six pack rods. These are the standard. Crank looks to be forged though I don't know if they ever came with cast as I write this.
I would imagine I am looking at the very least another .010" over which would be .040" over piston set. Maybe just some flat tops with 84 cc chambers? Still want a roller setup. Any forum opinions on recommended vendors? I really want great customer service. Thanks guys
The rods look to be the standard though I don't have the part number in front of me. Looked like there were the standard and then there were the six pack rods. These are the standard. Crank looks to be forged though I don't know if they ever came with cast as I write this.
I would imagine I am looking at the very least another .010" over which would be .040" over piston set. Maybe just some flat tops with 84 cc chambers? Still want a roller setup. Any forum opinions on recommended vendors? I really want great customer service. Thanks guys
ckessel
Well-Known Member
You have good rockers there!
Slap Stick
Well-Known Member
A full roller valvetrain is designed for high rpm race application
Wow, who knew my Dakota and Taurus have race engines straight from the factory!
Wow, who knew my Dakota and Taurus have race engines straight from the factory!
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
What can you tell me about them? I wouldn't mind keeping them on the engine if they are desirable and good quality parts..
ckessel
Well-Known Member
Ductile Iron units are very good and of course you have the adjustability feature too. Probably best bang for the buck if you are keeping it low dollar.
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
It looks like the damage to cyl #6 was due to a damaged oil control ring during installation. No damage at all to the piston. Man this really sucks. Assuming the only option is to tear everything down to bore oversize and new set of pistons.
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
Anyone think it's possible to sleeve the damaged cylinder, hone the remaining cylinders and run these pistons with new rings? Assuming the other cylinders are in proper order after inspection? Just hate to do away with good like new parts.
Homstead
Well-Known Member
There`s nothing wrong with sleeving if its done right. I think I would measure the piston clearances before you get to carried away. The cylinders don't look like they were honed and if they were it wasn't enough to take the boring marks out. It could be just the pics but that's what I'm seeing. If its on the loose side already you may not be able to get the proper cross hatch anyway so then you might as well bore it and install new pistons. I'm sure there`s guys that would buy those old pistons from you as they look in good shape. Good luck with the project!
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
I will just have whoever is doing the machine work tell me what my options are. Thanks for the luck, I seem to be running out on this one.
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
Just to update this thread. Bottom end dropped off today to the builder and hoping some parts can be salvaged. We know we need one sleeve but hoping to just hone the others and use the old TRW's with new bearings and rings. I am just having him put together the whole short block for me and I will deal with the top end.
If I can stick with the old TRW's then I am eyeing the RPM Performer heads with the 88cc chambers and maybe either the M1 or Torker II intake. If I need to go up to .040 over then will look at KB flat tops with the 84cc chambers. I will have my engine builder recommend a camshaft and will roll with the Holley 750 I already have.
If I can stick with the old TRW's then I am eyeing the RPM Performer heads with the 88cc chambers and maybe either the M1 or Torker II intake. If I need to go up to .040 over then will look at KB flat tops with the 84cc chambers. I will have my engine builder recommend a camshaft and will roll with the Holley 750 I already have.
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
My short block is finished and ready for pick up. We were able to use the old TRW's and sleeve the damaged cylinder #6. Block and crank were checked and in good shape and even factory specs, never turned or surfaced.
I ended up contacting Crower for the solid roller camshaft and lifters. They recommended duration at 0.050” 242/247 on a 108LSA lobe lift 0.403”/0.400.” I went with the Severe Duty Hippo lifters and they recommended 250 seat and 640 open on the valve springs. I did not feel comfortable running the old iron rockers after looking at them closely and will likely pitch them in the garbage. I have a set of 1.5 ratio Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum rockers coming in tomorrow.
I went back and forth on the heads but was pretty limited on chamber size so felt Performed RPM's were about my only choice. I have 2 buddys that run Pro Comp heads on their dirt drag trucks, have had no issues with them and they are both built alcohol motors. I looked more into head options and saw many decent reviews on the Promaxx and after seeing that Jeg's sells them I decided to contact one of my customers who is actually a head over online order customer service issues. He claimed they honestly don't have any more issues with those heads over any others they sell. He stated they had some fitment issues early on but the product overall has come around and seem to be decent quality for the money. I contacted Promaxx directly as they only list an 84cc chamber and spoke with Chad about what I was looking for. I was able to purchase a set of assembled heads, CNC ported "Promaxx Shocker" with 88cc chamber and the valves, springs I needed and steel retainers for $1785 shipped to my door. They are due to arrive tomorrow so I will post some pics for anyone interested.
I still plan to run a Torker II with the Holley 750 DP.
My engine builder checked my piston to deck height clearance and gave me a figure of .062" Assuming these chambers are truly 88cc that should give me about 10.1 compression with a .040" head gasket which is right where I want to be. I will be checking piston to valve clearance.
I am only posting all of this info in case this helps someone else out. I know when I went searching prior to this build, these details were some of the things I was looking for but always had trouble finding. I contacted EVERY camshaft manufacturer I could find that claimed to provide a cam recommendation and Crower was the ONLY one to respond so they got my business. Shane from Crower even called me directly to discuss his recommendation which I found to be very professional instead of just emailing me back.
I will post some pics as stuff arrives and keep this build public as it progresses, good & bad(hopefully all good!)
I ended up contacting Crower for the solid roller camshaft and lifters. They recommended duration at 0.050” 242/247 on a 108LSA lobe lift 0.403”/0.400.” I went with the Severe Duty Hippo lifters and they recommended 250 seat and 640 open on the valve springs. I did not feel comfortable running the old iron rockers after looking at them closely and will likely pitch them in the garbage. I have a set of 1.5 ratio Comp Cams Ultra Pro Magnum rockers coming in tomorrow.
I went back and forth on the heads but was pretty limited on chamber size so felt Performed RPM's were about my only choice. I have 2 buddys that run Pro Comp heads on their dirt drag trucks, have had no issues with them and they are both built alcohol motors. I looked more into head options and saw many decent reviews on the Promaxx and after seeing that Jeg's sells them I decided to contact one of my customers who is actually a head over online order customer service issues. He claimed they honestly don't have any more issues with those heads over any others they sell. He stated they had some fitment issues early on but the product overall has come around and seem to be decent quality for the money. I contacted Promaxx directly as they only list an 84cc chamber and spoke with Chad about what I was looking for. I was able to purchase a set of assembled heads, CNC ported "Promaxx Shocker" with 88cc chamber and the valves, springs I needed and steel retainers for $1785 shipped to my door. They are due to arrive tomorrow so I will post some pics for anyone interested.
I still plan to run a Torker II with the Holley 750 DP.
My engine builder checked my piston to deck height clearance and gave me a figure of .062" Assuming these chambers are truly 88cc that should give me about 10.1 compression with a .040" head gasket which is right where I want to be. I will be checking piston to valve clearance.
I am only posting all of this info in case this helps someone else out. I know when I went searching prior to this build, these details were some of the things I was looking for but always had trouble finding. I contacted EVERY camshaft manufacturer I could find that claimed to provide a cam recommendation and Crower was the ONLY one to respond so they got my business. Shane from Crower even called me directly to discuss his recommendation which I found to be very professional instead of just emailing me back.
I will post some pics as stuff arrives and keep this build public as it progresses, good & bad(hopefully all good!)
Last edited:
It’s been many years since I got into my 440, but I do remember seeing “peen “ marks on my rod bolts; I didn’t worry about it. I’m impressed that you are sticking with the 750cfm, seems like a lot of people just go “bigger”; especially on the street. As an aside, shut ur hood gently the first time, sometimes the air cleaner stud is too long.( ask how I know!)
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
It's because of the street I am sticking with the 750. I figured I won't be spending ALL of my time full throttle so the 750 may help.
I know I am going to end up with the engine too tall for my hood and I can't bring myself to cut a hole in the hood. It would be great to find someone local that could make a fiberglass hood from the original and then do what I want with it. I can't seem to find any listed for sale.
I know I am going to end up with the engine too tall for my hood and I can't bring myself to cut a hole in the hood. It would be great to find someone local that could make a fiberglass hood from the original and then do what I want with it. I can't seem to find any listed for sale.
Challenger340
Well-Known Member
250# Seat pressure with 640# open @ .600" Lift(assuming 1.5 RR) is around a 650# Rate per Inch Valve Spring ?
That my friend,
is a "Drag Race" cam ramp profile, just say'in.... How LONG do you intend to run this cam profile in the Street driven application ? between maintenance and V/Spring inspection/pressure checks ?
(FORGET what David Vizard's book says), that don't make ME nor anyone else for that matter a REAL Engine Builder.
and, in my experience only....
Crower HIPPO's don't work very good either unless you BUSH the Lifter Bores ?
again, just say'in here.... GREAT LIFTER in the correct installation !
but if you experience very low Oil pressure on startup ? you may remember hearing/reading something about it here first ?
all I am saying is this ...
Better yet... PRIME the Engine on the stand with the HIPPO's and see "where" you are at for Oil Pressure BEFORE you install it ? with UN-Bushed/Short stock Lifter Bores ?Might save you some grief later ?
And NO.... it won't get "better/higher" once fired up than what on the primer with a gauge is showing you.
If you see GOOD Oil pressure on the stand when priming ? Then good to go, but check on the stand FIRST OK ?
I mean what can it hurt ?
The "idea" with the HIPPO's in theory, is to pressure feed the Roller trunions with Oil for longevity, with the metering "limit" to supply being fed the Lifter body as the "clearance" in the Bores, the EDM'd Oil feed hole being located 180* from the Oil gallery and just BELOW the Lifter Body Oil Groove.
Go look... see that small "hole" just below the Oil Groove in the Lifter Body ? 180* around from the Block Oil gallery ? That's your oil supply "metering", the "clearance" of the Lifter in the 50 year Old Block's worn Lifter Bores.
Long story short ?
Good Luck with that.... because sometimes it's fine... other times, well... let's just say not so fine ?
Believe me here, No mileage in this for me raining on your day.... Good Luck, just a few suggestions, no wars wanted... carry on....
That my friend,
is a "Drag Race" cam ramp profile, just say'in.... How LONG do you intend to run this cam profile in the Street driven application ? between maintenance and V/Spring inspection/pressure checks ?
(FORGET what David Vizard's book says), that don't make ME nor anyone else for that matter a REAL Engine Builder.
and, in my experience only....
Crower HIPPO's don't work very good either unless you BUSH the Lifter Bores ?
again, just say'in here.... GREAT LIFTER in the correct installation !
but if you experience very low Oil pressure on startup ? you may remember hearing/reading something about it here first ?
all I am saying is this ...
Better yet... PRIME the Engine on the stand with the HIPPO's and see "where" you are at for Oil Pressure BEFORE you install it ? with UN-Bushed/Short stock Lifter Bores ?Might save you some grief later ?
And NO.... it won't get "better/higher" once fired up than what on the primer with a gauge is showing you.
If you see GOOD Oil pressure on the stand when priming ? Then good to go, but check on the stand FIRST OK ?
I mean what can it hurt ?
The "idea" with the HIPPO's in theory, is to pressure feed the Roller trunions with Oil for longevity, with the metering "limit" to supply being fed the Lifter body as the "clearance" in the Bores, the EDM'd Oil feed hole being located 180* from the Oil gallery and just BELOW the Lifter Body Oil Groove.
Go look... see that small "hole" just below the Oil Groove in the Lifter Body ? 180* around from the Block Oil gallery ? That's your oil supply "metering", the "clearance" of the Lifter in the 50 year Old Block's worn Lifter Bores.
Long story short ?
Good Luck with that.... because sometimes it's fine... other times, well... let's just say not so fine ?
Believe me here, No mileage in this for me raining on your day.... Good Luck, just a few suggestions, no wars wanted... carry on....
Bicylindrico
Well-Known Member
The heads arrived today so here are a few pics if someone wanted to see what they look like. Overall they look pretty nice.
You know, the only other car related forum I ever joined was MBWorld due to my experience with Mercedes-Benz vehicles. The reason I refuse to visit that forum any longer was due to all the know-it-all's that would jump around spreading disinformation and leading good people astray that were only there for help from people they thought knew what the hell they were talking about. I just found myself going from thread to thread trying to give good information but it didn't matter because they were always those that had thousands more posts that people ended up believing and those idiots would always counter my solid advice.
With that being said, I'm out
You know, the only other car related forum I ever joined was MBWorld due to my experience with Mercedes-Benz vehicles. The reason I refuse to visit that forum any longer was due to all the know-it-all's that would jump around spreading disinformation and leading good people astray that were only there for help from people they thought knew what the hell they were talking about. I just found myself going from thread to thread trying to give good information but it didn't matter because they were always those that had thousands more posts that people ended up believing and those idiots would always counter my solid advice.
With that being said, I'm out
1967coronet440
Well-Known Member
Look pretty nice, do you have flow numbers for the heads?
Challenger340
Well-Known Member
"With that being said, I'm out"
HUH ?
You are out ?
Why ?
I thought you were looking for good advice ?
because someone who has experience with.... and has used the Crower HIPPO Lifters in BB Mopars LOTS.... gave you some advice to PRIME the Engine Oil System first on the stand before putting it in the Car ?
That is no more than good mechanical practice ?
or,
because someone pointed out the RACE Cam profile you using requiring 650# Rate per Inch Valve Springs, you are then planning to run on the STREET driven environment, may.... just "may"..... also require an enhanced regime to inspection and V/Spring maintenance for best results on the STREET ?
CALL the Manufacturer if you believe someone here is trying to give you BAD advice ?
What's a phone call take at this point ?
Similar threads
