Windage Tray ????

[PurpleBeeper]

I'm 1/2 with bean on this one. My bet is that a windage tray makes the most difference driving down a bumpy road so that oil doesn't splash up on the crankshaft.

 

[wyrmrider]

Exactly beeper
keeps the oil from whipping and aerating and foaming and all that
even if the HP does not change- that's not why the windage tray is there- mostly

 

[rumblefish360]

Seriously, why did you go there.

Because Chrysler and there engineers have spent huge sums of time & money testing these things.

You don't even know the guy who builds my motors.

I couldn’t care less who he is.

But since you asked

I did not .... read again, no worries, cry on...

he has a Masters Degree in Mechanical Engineering, started his own design/build firm, sold it for a bunch of money, and now for the fun of it builds automotive and airplane engines.

So what. This only says to me he is a smarty pants that started a biz got bored, tired or ruined it and sold it for what he could, which according to you was piles of money? Made him rich?
You think he has more than me?
As if all the above should mean something better, more, than anybody here?

If he is so freakin great, then why do you come to us?

On the flip, you have no clue who anyone is here or what they have done. What they know as actual fact. Myself included.

So, yes he may be.

Well, you opened fire up here on me in defense of a guy that in the end you said, “he may be.” (Smarter)
Such a shame your not confident in him.

I'm not trying to be obtuse, but I would like to see a dyno sheet on a big block mopar, not a small block mopar, or a chevy. This wasn't meant to be a smarter

sure it is, it’s obvious you presented it this way in you reply!

than thou thread, it was a simple question and I was looking for information, not opinions.

And I gave you my sarcastic reply.
You don’t like it? LMAO!
Then move along, move along.

 

[rumblefish360]

I can definitely see a point where a tray could be removed in place, you would go with a crank scraper & a deep pan or a dry sump.

So now I have covered all the bases of basic to very much in terms of power that was never mentioned by the OP’s post.

Hey, do what ever makes you happy on your mill.

God bless, good luck, may it run forever.

 

[Challenger340]

Why even come here and ask this question ?
If Your Builder has "pieces of paper" on the wall ? and you have confidence in his abilities and his Engines ? and I guess he has Dyno'd every Engine he builds with/without Trays so has knowledge of Windage Tray benefits or lack thereof ?
then WHY....
would you come here looking for Engine Building advice by "Committee" ?

 

[Fran Blacker]

Read that some windage trays needed vents cut sides. Where it goes toward pan rails to let oil go out the sides. This way it doesn't have to flow to the rear of tray.

 

[gtxracer]

I can definitely see a point where a tray could be removed in place, you would go with a crank scraper & a deep pan or a dry sump.

So now I have covered all the bases of basic to very much in terms of power that was never mentioned by the OP’s post.

Hey, do what ever makes you happy on your mill.

God bless, good luck, may it run forever.

Rumblefish, I agree with your comments and once again this issue all boils down too choices, like so many things in life. We all build our cars/ engines, trans the way we think we should in order to garner the most HP with dependability. Whatever works and makes us happy, we do!

 

[dvw]

It depends. Relativly low rpm shallow pan motor would probably benefit by using the factory tray due to the fact the level is close to the crank. A deep custom pan that allows a lower level probaby wouldn't benifit. Opening the slots on the stock style tray can increase return. If you run high rpm consider a scraper. Many years ago Dave Koffel was running B blocks in Comp Eliminator (8000+ rpm). The side of the block was machined with a window for a bucket to catch the oil off a scaper. The inside of the block by the pan rail on the other side was filled for a smooth transition on the pan rail. For most street builds I install the tray.
Doug

 

[steve340]

The benefits of a windage tray fitted correctly may only be small but I have never heard of a windage tray blowing up a motor.

 

[gtxracer]

It depends. Relativly low rpm shallow pan motor would probably benefit by using the factory tray due to the fact the level is close to the crank. A deep custom pan that allows a lower level probaby wouldn't benifit. Opening the slots on the stock style tray can increase return. If you run high rpm consider a scraper. Many years ago Dave Koffel was running B blocks in Comp Eliminator (8000+ rpm). The side of the block was machined with a window for a bucket to catch the oil off a scaper. The inside of the block by the pan rail on the other side was filled for a smooth transition on the pan rail. For most street builds I install the tray.
Doug

Doug, I use a Milodon S/S oil pan with a dual line swing pickup and I still use a windage tray, always have. As you suggest I open the drain slots on the Milodon tray as another way to better control oil flow. Hence my post about this being a choice. It works for me at 7000 rpm.

 

[Cranky]

In the early 80's, my motor had a windage tray with a deep pan and was turning 7300 with it. I didn't build the moter but if I had, the tray would have most likely been left off. Never did any dyno runs with one or without one......to be truthful, never use a dyno at all and tuned at the track. But here's this from that link earlier.
Tray vs. No Tray
In theory, an oil pan windage tray drains the oil away from the crank and at the same time prevents the rotating crank throws from hitting an accumulation of oil. This is said to reduce frictional losses as well as fight oil foaming and aeration. Milodon, which makes the louvered tray used in our 440 buildup, maintains that it “can add about 12 to 15 hp” on a 400hp street engine. We decided to put this to the test. Westech removed the tray from the Victor intake/275HL cam combo and ran one last test. We found the tray really only starts working over 4,000 rpm; below that point it made virtually no difference in power and torque output. However, at the peaks we saw 6.5 lb-ft and nearly 7 hp. Of course, a static dyno can’t duplicate acceleration, braking, and cornering loads that can really ruin your whole day with a marginal oiling system.

Read that some windage trays needed vents cut sides. Where it goes toward pan rails to let oil go out the sides. This way it doesn't have to flow to the rear of tray.

Every factory tray I've seen had the vents or windows in them....

 

[mopar 3 B]

I have never had a problem with drain back or oil sitting on top the tray. Can not even see that happening with holes on both ends of the tray.
Having addequate oil in the pan for the pump and bearing clearence, proper plan of oil return and have made 60 mile runs above 4800 rpm. Will I install a pan again? Yes
If just drag racing probably not. Pan baffels would be more beneficial. Keeping the pickup submerged would be the main priority and not oil foaming off the crank.
I dont drive seconds at a time, just lots of continues seconds.

 

[steve340]

The info Cranky has supplied answers the original posters question quite clearly.
7 HP gain on a 440 engine.
For the price of windage tray that was a cheap 7 HP.
For a road engine that never goes over 4000 rpm do not bother.

 

[WileE]

The factory engineers had nothing better to do, so they contrived a hokey method to get a free 7 hp at higher rpm ? Too bad they didn't check with that engine builder, they could've saved themselves time & money. Yeah, they went through all that trouble for something that doesn't work.

 

[62MAX]

The factory engineers had nothing better to do, so they contrived a hokey method to get a free 7 hp at higher rpm ? Too bad they didn't check with that engine builder, they could've saved themselves time & money. Yeah, they went through all that trouble for something that doesn't work.

And prior to 67,none of the Hemi,Max Wedge or any thing else had a tray !

 

[moobster]

And prior to 67,none of the Hemi,Max Wedge or any thing else had a tray !

No sense in using up all your good tricks, when your in the lead anyways. Save 'em for later!

 

[69Bee]

And prior to 67,none of the Hemi,Max Wedge or any thing else had a tray !

Early Hemi's from the '50s had windage trays that bolted to the block. Not all of them, but some did. The bolt holes just outside of #3 and 4 mains are for the attaching bolts that hold the tray to the block.

 

[smallie9]

No need to complicate or get all technical about a windage tray, you have confidence in your choice to have your engine built by this gentleman, that was your decision, roll with his suggestion. The tray is not a permanent addition or subtraction, and if later on you loose that confidence or have empirical evidence to suggest otherwise in the decision, make a change.

Personally, MA MOPAR went through the effort for some reason, and I think a couple of people are still using one with no issue, so I have used one all the time, that is the decision I choose for my engines, and they perform well enough to send a tingle up and down my leg.

 

[beanhead]

 

[WileE]

The factory engineers had nothing better to do, so they contrived a hokey method to get a free 7 hp at higher rpm ? Too bad they didn't check with that engine builder, they could've saved themselves time & money. Yeah, they went through all that trouble for something that doesn't work.

This was posted with sarcasm. For higher rpm race applications, they freed up a half-dozen or so extra ponies. They knew what they were doing.