1968 440 with stock manifolds (cam selection help.)

[andyf]

First ,thanks for all the responses. I am trying to get the most out of a stock 440.

That statement doesn't really make any sense. Nobody knows what "get the most out of a stock 440" means. You need to figure out what your budget is and what your goals are. Do you want it to look stock and sound stock but run in the 12's? Do you care how much it costs? Do you want it to idle smooth but still pull hard or are you willing to live with a rough idle? Does the engine need to just look stock or do you want the internals to be stock also?

 

[Cudadude2]

What size exhaust? I have about the same combo but with a jetted quick fuel 735 cfm running Tri y headers and 2.5” exhaust and went 12.80 on a hot 90 degree night. My car weight is 3750.

2.5 inch Pypes X pipe thru pypes race pro 2.5 mufflers and 2.5 tail pipes.

 

[lewtot184]

That statement doesn't really make any sense. Nobody knows what "get the most out of a stock 440" means. You need to figure out what your budget is and what your goals are. Do you want it to look stock and sound stock but run in the 12's? Do you care how much it costs? Do you want it to idle smooth but still pull hard or are you willing to live with a rough idle? Does the engine need to just look stock or do you want the internals to be stock also?

good points. i'd add; do you want to use pump gas? do you want an exhaust system that doesn't have the neighbors or police gunning for you? do you want reliability? how much maintenance are you willing to do? what's it going to be; "pie in the sky" or reality?

 

[PRHeads]

I watched that video from Nicks Garage....... seems pretty close.
Zero deck 440 with bowl blended 452’s, stock intake, carb, ex manifolds...... a tad over 400hp.
When I run motors like that I use a belt from the crank to run the w/p instead of the electric.
With one-to-one pulleys, that’s about 5-8hp at the top end of the pull.

Even on that mild build, an RPM, headers, and bigger carb were worth about 40hp.
As the motor got more “serious”(more hp/ci), that difference would get greater.

If one were looking for a similar build to the one in the video, but wanted to step it up a little more....... I’d use some KB184 pistons, set the quench up properly, and step up to a solid lifter cam, make sure the heads were done “right”.

 

[fratzog lover]

This might be interesting. Headers,performance intake and carb and comparing to all stock on the dyno.

You were thinking what I was thinking, but faster. If this was a duel, I'd be shot!

 

[lewtot184]

I don't think the 405hp number in the video is realistic of what someone can expect with the engine in the car. no belt driven water pump, no alternator, no fan, and what about power steering. typically a better exhaust than will be used; take a good look. what I do find rather realistic is peak power at 5000rpm. hook all the junk up and streetable exhaust I bet that number goes down to 4500rpm. this dyno stuff is like a bunch of teenagers doing a penis measuring contest. i'm over it!!!!!!!!!! stuff isn't real.

currently i'm going thru this "stock" 440 stuff. just got in from another test ride. nobody blends the real world with the internet/magazine world. the chassis dyno is the lie detector.

 

[Turboomni]

I do see your point that with everything hooked up the power will be lower. For me the actual numbers are not important in this test. It is the relative differences in power and torque with the all stock versus upgrade carb,intake and exhaust manifold and even the air cleaner in the end that I found very interesting.

 

[PRHeads]

I don't think the 405hp number in the video is realistic of what someone can expect with the engine in the car. no belt driven water pump, no alternator, no fan, and what about power steering. typically a better exhaust than will be used; take a good look. what I do find rather realistic is peak power at 5000rpm. hook all the junk up and streetable exhaust I bet that number goes down to 4500rpm. this dyno stuff is like a bunch of teenagers doing a penis measuring contest. i'm over it!!!!!!!!!! stuff isn't real.

currently i'm going thru this "stock" 440 stuff. just got in from another test ride. nobody blends the real world with the internet/magazine world. the chassis dyno is the lie detector.

Of course...... before 1972.......that’s pretty much what the factories were doing to come up with their numbers.

https://www.greenval.info/horsepower---fact-or-fiction

Lew, what did one of your better running stock-ish 440 combos run in the 1/4, and at what weight?

 

[Ckeely]

I am using stock internals, stock compression, stock oil pan, intake and exhaust manifold. I am wondering what Cam grind is good with this combination. I also have a nice set of roller rockers. I am not looking for miracles just wondered if anybody has used this combination and what kind of success they had with a good cam number. I would consider head work intake and exhaust manifold matching if it is worth doing. I plan on putting around $4000 into this engine build.

 

[Officer Higgins]

I am using stock internals, stock compression, stock oil pan, intake and exhaust manifold. I am wondering what Cam grind is good with this combination. I also have a nice set of roller rockers. I am not looking for miracles just wondered if anybody has used this combination and what kind of success they had with a good cam number. I would consider head work intake and exhaust manifold matching if it is worth doing. I plan on putting around $4000 into this engine build

 

[Ckeely]

I have heard of them and also I am going to check it out thank you

 

[Officer Higgins]

Call bob tell you more then you will learn on your own, and if his cam is in question to your needs he will say so. Engle cams ground to his specs. Talked to chris at engle cams and he said bob has a specific spec for his cams different from stocked engle grinds. Hughes used to use engle as a supplier but chris said dave hughes i believe is his name just wanted to radical grinds for flat tappet cam grinds and with that the durability would greatly degrade. Been about year back i spoke with both chris from engle and bob mr 6 pack.

 

[Ckeely]

I will call tomorrow thanks.

 

[Cudadude2]

Some of what I did on my intake. Track testing showed improvement over leaving center divider in. May still be a mess as I’m no expert.

https://m.facebook.com/search/top/?...lter&tsid=0.7853401665525084&source=typeahead

 

[lewtot184]

I use engle cams. they used to be hugh's ".904 lifter" cams. I like engles, but the bob k. cam thing makes me scratch my head. some folks tout these cams as the holy grail, but the same folks can't tell you what lift or duration they are and neither can they quantify any power increases by track reports, dyno's or anything. my thoughts are if bob came up with something that works good for his "purpose" built engines, then why would someone think they'll work good for everything? like I said, I like engle, run them, used them, but i'm not buying into the "one size fits all".

 

[Officer Higgins]

I agree Engle cams are high quality, in my instance, i replaced a twenty year old Hughes 904 cam, when speaking to bob k he said my cam i believe will make more power but how much i dont know, he said if you are going to take it apart and want one of my cams, i will sell you one, if there's nothing wrong with the engine then just stay with what you have. He also said he was very familiar with those hughes cam and they work pretty well. I believe howards now supplying Hughes with cams.my only objections when speaking with someone at hughes is that to me at least that day, it was more of a really sir you dont know that kinda condescending attitude. He im no rookie but i also dont design, buidb or race engines for a living. So i rely on someone's experience in that field. My understanding is that bob k cam is fast rate of lift 904 lifter design to closely duplicate original six pack cam. Its not voodoo or be all end all. Bob did say disconnect the vacuum advance, see where you total timing is and get it all in fast, i even bought lighter distributor springs, he said hold off get your advance close to 40 degrees, without race fuel i got mine set at 38 give or take. So overall without bobs cam specs who knows. But i do know this bob runs those factory stock drags and he did work with tom hoover so he has some experience. But could those or are thoses cams close to or the same as engle grinds probably but i couldn't get anyone to say that. Forgot to mention i run the factory power brakes so i needed a cam that would also work with that. Also worth mentioning bob was talking about cylinder pressures and lobe separation angles too. Easy to start work with power brakes, torque come in little up the power band as 440 makes generous torque on its own. Alot of knowledge from from the guy. Would be interesting to see what those cams spec out at and what if any performance increases there are. We should all chip in and send one to nicks garage and see if he will test it on his dyno. Be good publicity for this forum. And remember you heard it here first from good ole officer Higgins.

 

[lewtot184]

at one time engle had a "blue sheet" that had their specs which included the .904 lifter profiles, and other .842 types. it may still be available. those .904 lifter profiles aren't fast compared to the comp xe's or hl profiles, but are faster than stock or some cranes. what I've noticed is they have a ramp profile that seems to be unique. they don't accelerate the tappet fast and then hold the valve open over the nose longer like comps. engles tappet speed seems to be fairly constant, using a higher lift, less nose radius, and then letting the valve close at a little gentler rate. the k65 i'm using now has a fairly long closing ramp which should be easier on the valvetrain. I did use a hughs/engle 2330 once in a stock 6pak type engine with stock exhaust. it did make the most power of the cams I tried. the comp cams magnum replacement was the worst with the mopar 272/.455 somewhere in the middle. I do believe something like the summit 6401 would be the most promising for stock type stuff. it has very good low and midrange torque for iron heads and stock exhaust. I do think the real issue with stock iron intake and exhaust is the restrictions on both ends; intake and exhaust. restrictions on one end are probably easier to deal with rather than both. the only thing I think makes sense is just work the middle. with restrictions it takes a bunch of compression to hang on to the top end rpm and that means race gas which I refuse to get caught in that trap. of the stock type cams I've used none where the "silver bullet" and I don't think there is anything that will be arms and legs above the others. I've had some ideas of custom cams just for this type of work, but truth is i'll probably never do it this late in the game.

 

[lewtot184]

Of course...... before 1972.......that’s pretty much what the factories were doing to come up with their numbers.

https://www.greenval.info/horsepower---fact-or-fiction

Lew, what did one of your better running stock-ish 440 combos run in the 1/4, and at what weight?

can I make excuses?.....lol. the most fun I had in a near stock engine was a 440 with home done pocket port 906's, kb184 pistons/9.3:1 comp, hughes engle 2330 cam, stock exhaust, 3.23 gear, torqueflite, 4060lbs, 225-70x15 ta radials; 107.92mph. e't's weren't good because I couldn't drive the car out; 13.20 something. I only made two passes with this set-up. got disgusted and quit. this combo made 327hp at the tire at around 4300rpm. power was flat from 4300rpm to 5300rpm where power fell off the cliff. the 272/.455 cam ran 13.13/106mph. knowing what I know now I could improve on this, but that's excuses.

 

[Officer Higgins]

at one time engle had a "blue sheet" that had their specs which included the .904 lifter profiles, and other .842 types. it may still be available. those .904 lifter profiles aren't fast compared to the comp xe's or hl profiles, but are faster than stock or some cranes. what I've noticed is they have a ramp profile that seems to be unique. they don't accelerate the tappet fast and then hold the valve open over the nose longer like comps. engles tappet speed seems to be fairly constant, using a higher lift, less nose radius, and then letting the valve close at a little gentler rate. the k65 i'm using now has a fairly long closing ramp which should be easier on the valvetrain. I did use a hughs/engle 2330 once in a stock 6pak type engine with stock exhaust. it did make the most power of the cams I tried. the comp cams magnum replacement was the worst with the mopar 272/.455 somewhere in the middle. I do believe something like the summit 6401 would be the most promising for stock type stuff. it has very good low and midrange torque for iron heads and stock exhaust. I do think the real issue with stock iron intake and exhaust is the restrictions on both ends; intake and exhaust. restrictions on one end are probably easier to deal with rather than both. the only thing I think makes sense is just work the middle. with restrictions it takes a bunch of compression to hang on to the top end rpm and that means race gas which I refuse to get caught in that trap. of the stock type cams I've used none where the "silver bullet" and I don't think there is anything that will be arms and legs above the others. I've had some ideas of custom cams just for this type of work, but truth is i'll probably never do it this late in the game.

Awesome information. i think i have copy of old engle spec sheets but hard to read, copy of a copy of a copy thing. Fascinating information you have shared. I called bob originally and said thinking about a cam been long time have few bucks now to spend. Told him man when i go to car shows i cant even tell sometimes if my car started, when i! Sitting next to those rumpty rump cars. He said believe it or not smoother cam in alot of instances will outrun alot of those. He said that huges cam is pretty good for stock 67 440 that you have with power brakes, he then said i believe my grind will be better but not enough to warrant just taking motor apart for.I thought well bet that cam is worn out primarily from lower zinc in oil. So i got it out and surprisingly it was in great shape so were the lifters all usa made. But by then i already had bobs cam so i put it in. Bigger carb, headers run better no doubt but he its 52 years old and up to about 10 years ago hardly anything could pass you on highway. But if i need cam from my limited knowledge i believe in those engle cams. Chris at engle said replaced alot of comp cams lobes wiped out, put engle cam in they were fine. Also suggested using Kendall 20/50 zinzic oil.

 

[lewtot184]

Awesome information. i think i have copy of old engle spec sheets but hard to read, copy of a copy of a copy thing. Fascinating information you have shared. I called bob originally and said thinking about a cam been long time have few bucks now to spend. Told him man when i go to car shows i cant even tell sometimes if my car started, when i! Sitting next to those rumpty rump cars. He said believe it or not smoother cam in alot of instances will outrun alot of those. He said that huges cam is pretty good for stock 67 440 that you have with power brakes, he then said i believe my grind will be better but not enough to warrant just taking motor apart for.I thought well bet that cam is worn out primarily from lower zinc in oil. So i got it out and surprisingly it was in great shape so were the lifters all usa made. But by then i already had bobs cam so i put it in. Bigger carb, headers run better no doubt but he its 52 years old and up to about 10 years ago hardly anything could pass you on highway. But if i need cam from my limited knowledge i believe in those engle cams. Chris at engle said replaced alot of comp cams lobes wiped out, put engle cam in they were fine. Also suggested using Kendall 20/50 zinzic oil.

some years back bob stated in a magazine article what his cams were. they are pretty mild. I think I remember the intake lobe but not the exhaust. he is/was handicapped by lift rule. big cams don't like mufflers and I've never really cared for them for street use. a racer brown ssh44 cured me of the big cam crap. too many people perform very well with small cams. to me the cam "search" thing is over rated. from my experience put an engle in it and you won't have to work on it.