Ammeter ?

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

Thanks guys your awesome!

72Roadrunner GTX thanks yup the red wire with black trace was not only without insulation but frayed and no longer connected to anything but headed towards the fuse box.

It looks like from Threewoods schematic and mine that it provides power to the ignition? This would explain two things.
1. the shorted yellow ignition line I found in the steering column burned out this line.
2. This being the supply to the ignition would explain why I get nothing when I turn the key.

This does beg the question of why does my headlights and horn still work without this line connected? Looking at the scematic it looks like that red-trace line supplies that node (weld splice) 12V from the unswitched VBAT.

Also where is this splice I hear they often fail...???????

The red with trace, Q3-14R*, does not supply the ignition, it supplies the unswitched “BATT” bus in the fuse box. Again, the horn, headlights, and ignition switch are powered from other wires that originate from that same welded splice, that is why the horn and headlights continue to function. The ignition power feed, circuit J1-12R, 12 gauge red wire, does not originate from the fuse box. Do you have voltage on the red wire at the ignition switch Molex connector?

The small yellow wire you found pinched is the ignition lock lamp lead only. With the delay relay removed there was no short on that circuit, and would have blown a fuse if it had been in place, not a factor in, unrelated to your current issues.
The splice is feed from the black 12 gauge wires, charging side of the ammeter, splice is taped up in the dash harness, not sure on the exact location for ’70, but usually between the cluster and the bulkhead connector. Follow the black ammeter wire, you will find it.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

agreed... that yellow wire is not powered without the delay relay/flasher in place ( sorry didn't pay attention to the problem ).

Ignition switch batt wire even being red, comes from the black splice from alt side of amm... same as the red wire to the batt side of fuse box.

The black wire on ign switch also will run up to fuse box but to feed ACC devices buss bar

that can be some confusing, since they are "reversed" on fuse box from the initial sources

 

[Moparfiend]

The red with trace, Q3-14R*, does not supply the ignition, it supplies the unswitched “BATT” bus in the fuse box. Again, the horn, headlights, and ignition switch are powered from other wires that originate from that same welded splice, that is why the horn and headlights continue to function. The ignition power feed, circuit J1-12R, 12 gauge red wire, does not originate from the fuse box. Do you have voltage on the red wire at the ignition switch Molex connector?

The small yellow wire you found pinched is the ignition lock lamp lead only. With the delay relay removed there was no short on that circuit, and would have blown a fuse if it had been in place, not a factor in, unrelated to your current issues.
The splice is feed from the black 12 gauge wires, charging side of the ammeter, splice is taped up in the dash harness, not sure on the exact location for ’70, but usually between the cluster and the bulkhead connector. Follow the black ammeter wire, you will find it.

Hi thanks guys for your continued help on this rascal of a problem. Bubba unfortunately wrapped wire around the fusses as well as pulled a lot of stuff out and that is one of the reasons I am having the difficulty that I am so your help is REALLY appreciated!

72RoadrunnerGTX is the Molex ignition switch connector the wide connector? If so YES I have 12V on the larger red wire at that point.

I am wondering if the ignition switch in the column is toast. When I tried to crank it over all I got was smoke from the column which tells me it probably is fried. If that's the case I need to know why it pulled so much current that it also nearly smoked the fusible link.

To replace the ignition switch can I just fish it through the column or does it require extensive column disassembly?

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

Smoke coming from the column would indicate a short there on the blue, black, or brown wires or the switch internally. While cranking only, would indicate the larger yellow starter wire is shorted. To get to the ignition switch, you will need to remove the steering wheel, turn signal switch, upper column bearing support/housing, locking plate. If you remove lower column support plate (appears maybe you already have) and the plastic wire cover on the bottom of the column, the Molex (brand/type name) ignition switch connector can be feed up though the column head without removing the wires from the connector.

I would also make sure the starter relay circuit (large yellow wire) from the ignition switch connector to the starter relay is not shorted before taking the column apart. If it is shorted somewhere between the switch connector and the relay, it could have the same symptoms, smoke (high current draw) only while cranking. Disconnect the yellow wire at the relay, disconnect the ignition switch connector, check for continuity to ground on the yellow wire.

 

[Moparfiend]

Smoke coming from the column would indicate a short there on the blue, black, or brown wires or the switch internally. While cranking only, would indicate the larger yellow starter wire is shorted. To get to the ignition switch, you will need to remove the steering wheel, turn signal switch, upper column bearing support/housing, locking plate. If you remove lower column support plate (appears maybe you already have) and the plastic wire cover on the bottom of the column, the Molex (brand/type name) ignition switch connector can be feed up though the column head without removing the wires from the connector.

I would also make sure the starter relay circuit (large yellow wire) from the ignition switch connector to the starter relay is not shorted before taking the column apart. If it is shorted somewhere between the switch connector and the relay, it could have the same symptoms, smoke (high current draw) only while cranking. Disconnect the yellow wire at the relay, disconnect the ignition switch connector, check for continuity to ground on the yellow wire.

Great will look ok at those tomorrow. Thanks gor the guidance and great info teally helps!

 

[Nacho-RT74]

To replace the ignition switch can I just fish it through the column or does it require extensive column disassembly?

it requires AT LEAST remove steering wheel, loose and pull a bit out turning switch, remove next column collar ( screws and snap rings to the bearing ), then the steering lock wheel

some of this info here:

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0308-mopar-steering-column-rebuild/

 

[Moparfiend]

Thanks nacho!

So I am wondering what two wires in the ignition switch itself get closed for starting/cranking? I could make sure that it’s getting closed by checking its continuity. Red/black? I don’t actually see the ignition switch in the schematic actually. Also right now when I turn the ignition switch I get nothing @@@ Nada. So I think the switch may be burned out. Here is a snap of the schematic all I see is the ignition molex connector but not the actual swich itself and its make/break connections.

 

[miller]

So I think the switch may be burned out.

Probably a good chance it is. Sorry to hear.

 

[Nacho-RT74]

ok.... for continuity test ( which is not allways for voltage because when conected the ballast becomes on part of the net and some stuff changes )

red with blue and black on first stage ( RUN or ign 1)

red with yellow and brown on second stage ( START or ign 2 )

red with black on the step back stage ( ACC )

Turning switch

pink and red are allways hot when on car and flasher in the line ( plugged ) white is hot just when pressing brakes. If flashers are not conected, pink and red are not hot.

both greens, tan and brown are the 4 corners. They are hot just when selecting the turning switch/hazzard function ( dark green and brown are hot giving brakes with turning/hazzard switch not activated )

black is ground signal to trigger the horn. Just activated of course when triggering the horn

 

[Nacho-RT74]

the two thin red wires which become black into the dash harness are the key in buzzer trigger ( in and out ). since 71 they drive negative ( ground coming from door switch ) however on 70s I think they drive positive on a very complex circuit they simplified since 71 using a simple door ground.

orange thin wire is the steering column shifter lettering light. Allways present on dash harness but unused on column if floor shifter so the wire goes to nowhere from the plug on this case

 

[Moparfiend]

Excellent info Nacho! Thanks!!!!

So I think I am referring to ignition#2 for cranking. If I pull the ignition connector and check for continuity for the switch while holding it the crank position then am I getting you right that it is the red-yellow and the brown wire that should close?

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

As already mentioned early in this thread, smoke and over-heating fusible link while cranking from the switch point to a dead short on the starter relay circuit (yellow wire) or possibly the ballast resistor by-pass (brown wire). Have you eliminated that those circuits being grounded? Disconnect the yellow wire at the starter relay to eliminate it as possibly shorted.

 

[Moparfiend]

As already mentioned early in this thread, smoke and over-heating fusible link while cranking from the switch point to a dead short on the starter relay circuit (yellow wire) or possibly the ballast resistor by-pass (brown wire). Have you eliminated that those circuits being grounded? Disconnect the yellow wire at the starter relay to eliminate it as possibly shorted.

Hi 72RoadrunnerGTX I am planning on doing that first yes!

 

[Moparfiend]

As already mentioned early in this thread, smoke and over-heating fusible link while cranking from the switch point to a dead short on the starter relay circuit (yellow wire) or possibly the ballast resistor by-pass (brown wire). Have you eliminated that those circuits being grounded? Disconnect the yellow wire at the starter relay to eliminate it as possibly shorted.

Ok the yellow line on the starter relay when disconnected at both points is not shorted to ground however the relay contact is (don't know if that's an issue as I don't know how the internals of the relay is configured).

However the brown wire with the yellow strip when disconnected IS SHORTED. I assume this is not good and maybe an issue??? This wire I bet since disconnected at both ends should not be shorted and is inside the wire harness. So I have to wonder why this might be shorted and if I should bypass with a new wire?

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

The two smaller terminals in the starter relay are the primary windings of the relay. Sometimes labeled “I” & “G”, you should have about 25 ohms when measured across them. Yellow wire normally connects to the “I” terminal. “G” is the ground via the neutral safety switch.
BTW, the smaller brown with yellow trace at the starter relay is the ground from the neutral safety switch, not to be confused with the larger gauge brown wire ballast resistor by-pass circuit. It will show grounded in park and neutral.

On the larger brown wire at the ignition switch connector, make sure you disconnect it from the “+” terminal at the coil as well as the ballast resistor. If it still shows a ground, find out where and fix it. Brown wire runs from the ignition switch connector to the bulkhead head connector, terminal “Q”, to the engine harness.

 

[Moparfiend]

So I noticed that the schematic I have (shown above) does not show the starter ignition switch contacts. Not sure why but also I can not find it in the 1970 FSM as well. The MAD article does not have it either. I wonder if one was ever produced with it?? Maybe I am just missing it....

Because I am working on so many systems I still need to be able to fire this engine up to make sure it works while I hunt for all the electrical gremlins. What I would like to get is a schematic of how the ignition selectors contact for Ign1 and Ign2. I guess I just need to see it to better understand it. This will help me better debug the issue on the electrical side as well.

I maybe assuming too much that someone already has this part of the schematic. If not I will try and draw one out and have you guys review. This will help others in the future.

Thanks so much guys!

 

[72RoadrunnerGTX]

There are five positions on that switch;

Wire Lead continuity to;

Accessory- Red to black

Off-Wheel Locked, key removal - none

Off-Wheel unlocked- none

Ignition on- Red to Blue & Black

Start, momentary, returns to ignition on- Red to Yellow and Brown

 

[Moparfiend]

There are five positions on that switch;

Wire Lead continuity to;

Accessory- Red to black

Off-Wheel Locked, key removal - none

Off-Wheel unlocked- none

Ignition on- Red to Blue

Start, momentary, returns to ignition on- Red to Yellow and Brown

Got it 72RRGTX this is exactly what I needed! Thanks so much!!!!!

 

[Nacho-RT74]

I thought it was clear enough on my reply about how to check for continuity... sorry if I wasn't

red must be with black on ignition on too, even has nothing to do with ign system

 

[Moparfiend]

I thought it was clear enough on my reply about how to check for continuity... sorry if I wasn't

red must be with black on ignition on too, even has nothing to do with ign system

Thanks Nacho I am just a dork lol