Cam is in, car is running, now the TUNING begins!

[BeastlyBirdie]

Greg, just because I'm curious, how did the original rod break? And, why did it break? You say it broke in the mid of the beam, did a piston seize?
On your current issue, how tight are you running the pistons, how much gap in the rings?

 

[Kern Dog]

Greg, just because I'm curious, how did the original rod break? And, why did it break? You say it broke in the mid of the beam, did a piston seize?
On your current issue, how tight are you running the pistons, how much gap in the rings?

Man, that .030 440 was cursed from the start!
First, it wouldn't fire right away for the break-in. After fixing that, it had low oil pressure. I found a missing galley plug inside the fuel pump/timing cover area....A plug I never knew existed and that the machinist pulled out. After that, it ran great. No damage to the cam or lifters. Oil pressure was fantastic. The #4 rod broke just above the big end. The piston went up and bent the valves, then sunk to about 3/4" below deck. The rod broke in two and the section still on the piston was twisted like a candy cane. I don't know if the big end smacked it causing it to twist or if the rod broke because it twisted.
Fast forward to 2006. I was out driving the car with this 493 in place. The RH rocker shaft broke, causing 4 lifters to pop out of their bores! The rocker shafts were from the cursed 440.
Regarding my 493 ring gap, I followed the instructions to the exact spec. I was so meticulous, when I accidently over-filed 2 rings, I ordered 2 more and was super careful to get them filed right. I believe they called for .018 for the top rings and .020 for the 2nd ring. I seem to recall the guideline of .0035 for every inch of bore size as a minimum.

- - - Updated - - -

Regarding the late model cars running high compression engines....Sure, give me the sophisticated port fuel injection, knock sensors, engine management computers, a return-type fuel system and a cold air intake and maybe I'd be okay with 10.7 squeeze.

- - - Updated - - -

Greg, you obviously only have one logical solution. B) buy custom gaskets from the link I provided and actually drive your car... I am not saying quench is not important or rod ratio.. They all play a critical part in an engine build, but in this case, the engine is built. Less static/dynamic compression is the only answer now. Quench' won't save a 11:1CR RB on 91 in California.. Maybe a 10.5:1 RB on 91...

I did try clicking on the "Flatout" link. They only showed a .040 MLS gasket. I will look further though. Thank you, Greg.

*************************************************************

I did a wider search and found this:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fog-900464520

These are much cheaper than the Cometics, but so far I haven't found any gaskets by "Flatout" to get the compression under 10.0 to one. These have a 4.520 bore and a .064 thickness. It would lower the CR to 10.11 to 1. That is a .62 drop. For $176 per pair, they are tempting. The .075 Cometics are $143 each. They take the CR to 9.89 to 1.
The .060 Cometic I used in 2006 took my CR to 10.29 to 1. It didn't knock then, and that was with the super fast advance curve in it. Maybe all of this will come down to a combination of a lower CR, additional carb tuning and a b it more attention to the advance curve. Heck, if I can get the knock to go away, I'll probably even try using the vacuum advance again!

 

[Supershafts]

:laughing4: That's about what it seems like! In no way, shape, or form can you compare a modern LSX (1/2/3/7/9 and beyond) engine to our RB's. GM spent millions of dollars to squeak out every ounce of available power per/cubic inch, and the ECU/PCM automatically tweaks itself (and timing) to the octane of fuel provided. I should know, I have a Z06 Corvette (only a measly 10.5CR though).. My Z' even retards the timing when the coolant temp exceeds 200*.. Don't expect your Orange box to be doing this anytime soon.

Greg, you obviously only have one logical solution. Pray to Mother Mopar that the 'quench' effect will save you at 11:1+ compression or drop down to a reasonable 9.75-10.0:1 'static' ratio by either A) dropping in a completely different set of pistons and tearing the motor apart or B) buy custom gaskets from the link I provided and actually drive your car... I am not saying quench is not important or rod ratio.. They all play a critical part in an engine build, but in this case, the engine is built. Less static/dynamic compression is the only answer now. Quench' won't save a 11:1CR RB on 91 in California.. Maybe a 10.5:1 RB on 91...

Well, damn it if GM can do it on the new engine then I can do it on a 60's designed 440. Who do they think they are getting away with 11:1 on pump gas - with all that electronic spark control; knock sensors; port EFI; controlled inlet charge temps; purposely designed combustion chambers, piston tops and camshafts. I mean really! What makes that team of engineers and hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on dynos and R&D equipment including professional data logging software spitting out reports and charts so special? I should be able to add .015" of quench and change the rod ratio by 7% and I can run 11:1 on 91 octane also.

But a moment earlier you were both saying this isn't important, quench isn't that important, chamber shape is not so hard to make on AL heads, lots of options to make a OLD RB with AL heads do many things, but not when you cast off quench as non functional, and when dealing with things like quench and shapes the SLIGHTEST change can be monstrous gains.

When you eventually see a new lt1 inside you'll see that the chamber isn't all that different than aftermarket Indy heads and or W's, and you'll see that gm was playing with pistons and not playing with the chamber, and oddly enough i have played with grooves and channels, and that works to make higher comp motors deal with lower octane fuels without any need for a comp to play with anything.
Gm isn't doing anything not already known, but i guess that depends what you look at as new tech


So you know the knock sensors and port f.i. aren't why that motor doesn't knock, those are all fail-safes intended for stupid people who wouldn't know when to stop using something in the event it was to run into some other unforseen problem.
I have a return fuel system, have more than 10.7, have cold outside air, i even have the option of cooling the fuel when the outside temp is at 100 if need be, everything you can do too.
.

 

[Meep-Meep]

But a moment earlier you were both saying this isn't important, quench isn't that important, chamber shape is not so hard to make on AL heads, lots of options to make a OLD RB with AL heads do many things, but not when you cast off quench as non functional, and when dealing with things like quench and shapes the SLIGHTEST change can be monstrous gains.

When you eventually see a new lt1 inside you'll see that the chamber isn't all that different than aftermarket Indy heads and or W's, and you'll see that gm was playing with pistons and not playing with the chamber, and oddly enough i have played with grooves and channels, and that works to make higher comp motors deal with lower octane fuels without any need for a comp to play with anything.
Gm isn't doing anything not already known, but i guess that depends what you look at as new tech


So you know the knock sensors and port f.i. aren't why that motor doesn't knock, those are all fail-safes intended for stupid people who wouldn't know when to stop using something in the event it was to run into some other unforseen problem.
I have a return fuel system, have more than 10.7, have cold outside air, i even have the option of cooling the fuel when the outside temp is at 100 if need be, everything you can do too.
.

It all adds up for sure and I have said over and over that detonation is controlled by many factors - not just compression. Just show me how tightening up the quench by .015" is going to help Greg. Hey, maybe it will, but for the amount of work involved to make that change while looking at highly questionable returns, I'd be doing much more than putting in a thinner head gasket.

 

[Supershafts]

Just show me how tightening up the quench by .015" is going to help Greg. Hey, maybe it will,

That is why building motors isn't as easy as everyone thinks, matching parts and knowing why & what needs to be done is knowledge people don't give up and you can't learn because you have a torque wrench, bore gauges, calipers and piston installer.
The same holds true for shops that have boring machines, bridgeports and honing machines, ect, that also doesn't make them motor builders

He could very well only need maybe another .009 of quench, could even remove the pistons and put a fire groove in.
.

 

[Meep-Meep]

That is why building motors isn't as easy as everyone thinks, matching parts and knowing why & what needs to be done is knowledge people don't give up and you can't learn because you have a torque wrench, bore gauges, calipers and piston installer.
The same holds true for shops that have boring machines, bridgeports and honing machines, ect, that also doesn't make them motor builders

He could very well only need maybe another .009 of quench, could even remove the pistons and put a fire groove in.
.

I'm a hobbyist at best and haven't built 100 engines but I have done OK with my pliers and screwdriver. I make subtle changes that seem to work well and provide plenty of driving enjoyment for the money spent. I'm also not in the HP war and could care less what people think when I say my cam lift starts with a .4..."

 

[Meep-Meep]

I will make my final point on this thread. It's very easy for anyone to suggest from behind the keyboard that changing the quench .015" while raising the compression by default is going to solve Greg's problems. It might and it might not. But after all it's Greg's time and money and thoughts running through his head while he's standing looking over the drivers side fender into the engine bay wondering what to do next.

I'm sure making a car run properly is not a full time job for most of us, and I bet by now anyone in Greg's position would be looking to do something that will yield results based on some proven data with a high percentage of success and get on with life. I might safely suggest that if you were faced with this problem and have tasted the failures that Greg has up to this point you would not be screwing around with a change this small. You would be puling the motor.

 

[Kern Dog]

I don't feel as beat down and discouraged as I may appear.
Sure, there are others that have ran compression ratios like mine and ran great. I also notice that many people are running 93 octane. That 2 point difference may be all that is needed to make this 10.7 engine run right. It could be as simple as that.
I have wondered why the cranking compression numbers went UP and the detonation got worse when I switched to the Lunati cam. I did some more digging around and finally found some actual specs on the 509 cam. Mopar Performance has a history of refusing to list the specs of their cams the way that the REST of the industry has done for years. Even as recent as 10 years ago, they told users that wanted a duration number @ .050 to take their advertised duration and multiply it by .85. How friggin lazy can you be???
I found that the 509 was spec'd to have a intake closing at 74 degrees. Most online dynamic compression ratio calculators ask for the intake closing @ .050 PLUS 15 degrees. The Lunati @ .050 is 56.5 PLUS 15 equals 71.5. If the math is right, the Lunati closes 2 1/2 degrees earlier! This would explain why the engine knocks more. The Lunati seems to make more power, so once I stop the knocking it should all work out.

- - - Updated - - -

I will make my final point on this thread. It's very easy for anyone to suggest from behind the keyboard that changing the quench .015" while raising the compression by default is going to solve Greg's problems. It might and it might not. But after all it's Greg's time and money and thoughts running through his head while he's standing looking over the drivers side fender into the engine bay wondering what to do next.

I'm sure making a car run properly is not a full time job for most of us, and I bet by now anyone in Greg's position would be looking to do something that will yield results based on some proven data with a high percentage of success and get on with life.

Its a good thing that I enjoy tinkering with the car. Yeah....It has been a bit frustrating. I asked for advice MONTHS ago about how to stop the detonation when I has the 509 cam in there. Many suggested that a bigger cam would help. To me, it was an unconventional way to get the desired results, but I was open to all ideas. I picked a cam that came recommended by a FABO member.
Over the past few months, I have spent just shy of $2000 to be no further ahead than I was in June. Cam, Lifters, aluminum roller tipped rocker arms, pushrods, timing set, cam degree kit, gasket set, valley pans, break in oil, break in supplements, oil filters, 6 quart HEMI oil pan.......
Lucky for me the money came from selling some car parts that I wasn't going to use. I'm still optimistic that with a drop in compression and more tuning, the car will run better than ever.

 

[SwedCharger67]

...
The Lunati @ .050 is 56.5 PLUS 15 equals 71.5. If the math is right, the Lunati closes 2 1/2 degrees earlier!

Are you sure those numbers are correct?
Seems to be closing the intake very late. I couldn't find info on exactly what Lunati cam you are using?

 

[Kern Dog]

The Lunati cam is the 316/326 solid flat tappet. I took the numbers from the cam card. The dynamic compression calculators I have used ask for the .050 number PLUS the 15 degrees. I suppose this is to account for the "advertised" numbers that MP and others Use??

 

[Kern Dog]

I finally got to work on the car after work.
I got the RH head off. The gasket looked fine-no signs of any burns near the fire rings as I have read about elsewhere. I plan to get the left head off tomorrow, then take them both to my machinist on Wednesday.

 

[Kern Dog]

UPDATE:
Its been quite a while since the last report, but I have some new info.
I had the heads ported by a local guy here in Nor Cal. These heads have been on 2 engines and resurfaced 3 or 4 times at about .005" to remove the imprint that the Fel Pro gaskets leave. I never took into account that the resurfacing could have affected the CR. With the heads off, I cleaned the carbon from the pistons and rechecked the deck clearance. I found .012 at every hole when I thought I was at .017. These two factors changed the calculated CR from 10.73 to one to approx 11.0 to one. This is with a "quench" clearance of .051. Many here and elsewhere suggested going with a .027 Cometic MLS to get a better quench number, but this put me at 11.4 to one. I just wasn't comfortable with a ratio that high.
After unshrouding the valves and some additional chamber work, the chambers now measure 83 ccs. Using the .075 gasket, the CR will be an even 10.0 to one. The .086 takes it to 9.77 to one.
The lower CR will cost a few HP, but the better spark curve will more than make up for it. The porting should add some power as well. I look forward to driving the car under all conditions without knocking whether it is cruising down the interstate or full throttle-sideways-tire smoking burnouts.

 

[Meep-Meep]

update:
Its been quite a while since the last report, but i have some new info.
I had the heads ported by a local guy here in nor cal. These heads have been on 2 engines and resurfaced 3 or 4 times at about .005" to remove the imprint that the fel pro gaskets leave. I never took into account that the resurfacing could have affected the cr. With the heads off, i cleaned the carbon from the pistons and rechecked the deck clearance. I found .012 at every hole when i thought i was at .017. These two factors changed the calculated cr from 10.73 to one to approx 11.0 to one. This is with a "quench" clearance of .051. Many here and elsewhere suggested going with a .027 cometic mls to get a better quench number, but this put me at 11.4 to one. I just wasn't comfortable with a ratio that high.
After unshrouding the valves and some additional chamber work, the chambers now measure 83 ccs. Using the .075 gasket, the cr will be an even 10.0 to one. The .086 takes it to 9.77 to one.
The lower cr will cost a few hp, but the better spark curve will more than make up for it. The porting should add some power as well. I look forward to driving the car under all conditions without knocking whether it is cruising down the interstate or full throttle-sideways-tire smoking burnouts.

exactly!!

 

[Sweet5ltr]

Greg,
Happy to see you got the car back together. Keep us informed on how everything turns out. I was a firm believer in the camshaft swap initially, but nothing is going to help you at 11:1 CR and 91 octane. I now see that Summit carries many popular sizes of cosmetic gaskets for 440's and you don't need to order specialty sets anymore. I would definitely shoot for a 9.75-10:1 compression figure and call it a day.

I want to let you know much more goes into tuning that just setting a box-stock 750-850 holley on top, and I am sure you know that by now. I attempted this with a $1,000 CSU 750 Blow Through for my Turbo 451 and was surprised with how poor it ran OOTB. Changed primary and rear jetting, inner and outer air bleeds, and front and rear squirter sizes with high flow screws for it to operate like my old carburetor. A Wideband Gauge would definitely help you out, and I have found it a great tuning resource with this project. Having a properly set up carburetor will also aid in safe guarding detonation effects.

 

[Kern Dog]

I have learned that an engine with compression this high requires the owner to be more "on the ball". I've taken it for granted over the years with the other cars, other engines with lower CRs.
It is maddening to deal with a problem that defies all the sensible & common fixes. Rusty Rat Rod suggested a cam that he thought would help. It looked impressive on paper and I think that once I get the car running again, it will be faster than before with the MP 509 cam. I ordered the Cometics yesterday. The Summit website showed them to be in stock, but the reality is that they are shipped from Cometic directly AND made to order. I had hoped to have the car running over the Thanksgiving weekend, but its likely that i won't get the gaskets until sometime late next week.
I actually do have a Wideband guage in the car and was using it to tune the car. I was trying almost anything to eliminate the knocking. I went higher and lower with the jets, the power valve, adjusted the idle mixture screws multiple times to get the best idle, recurved 2 distributors, tried multiple timing settings, tried 104 octane gas.....Finally in a desperate attempt, I poured in 3 gallons of leaded 110 fuel. Zero knock, zero ping and it ran friggin strong!
It was because of all the work that I determined that I either needed to run higher octane fuel ALL THE TIME or lower the compression ratio.
If I only drove the car in my home town, the 110 fuel would have been okay but I wanted the freedom to drive anywhere.

 

[Kern Dog]

A few times I have been asked..."Are you sure that you are hearing detonation?"
I thought I knew what it sounded like, but who the heck knows. I don't have perfect hearing so I'm sure I could be hearing something else. Here is what I do know though: My cranking compression is an average of 191 per cylinder. backing off the timing stops the knocking. Adding 110 fuel stops the knocking. That seems like detonation to me.
Still, I read and heard that there are physical signs of detonation that you can actually SEE in the pistons, so i took a look. I was told that markings similar to those made with an icepick will be visible.

- - - Updated - - -

I didn't see any markings to suggest detonation, but to be sure I decided to clean the tops of all the pistons. I did this for a few reasons. The carbon adds to the compression ratio and will only increase over time. I also wanted to REcheck the deck clearance. I found out it was actually .012 instead of the .017 that I had written down long ago.
Looking at the cleaned up pistons, I still cannot find any evidence of detonation damage. Either I caught it early or it wasn't that severe. Either way, I'm moving forward with the original plan.
Cylinder #1 has a mark below the exhaust valve notch, but that was where the piston stop made contace.

 

[Kern Dog]

The .075 Cometic gaskets are here. I've been so busy with work, I've had no time to work on the car.
I've been considering an experiment though....
I read that these gaskets can be reused. If this is true, I might try using a set of the .027 gaskets just to see for myself if quench would make the difference. If the engine runs great, I'll leave the thin gaskets in there. If the engine knocks, I'll put the .075s in there and save the .027s for another engine.

 

[70bigblockdodge]

I feel the need to put my 2 cents. You had a bad run hope it improves, I was blaming dist then carb then back to dist (still not a fan of the mallory guttet dist), when you posted cranking compression numbers there was your answer those are big numbers for a street car. Glad to see you took the plunge and dropped the ratio given the #2 fuel oil cali calls pump premium and I guess that will be spreading to the rest of us. Your key words are street car and driveablity yeah you may give up at most 10% more likely 6-7% your still in 500 range and will run very good on gas from any old place stick with the lower ratio stop second guessing and have some fun plus you have a good "someday" bench racing story. I would also ditch that mallory gutted dist and get anew one or a old original style leave it withlong advance curve and put the vacuum advance to a venturi vacuum port it will help mpg, ring life and keep cleaner oil it has no effect on idle or wot and they are tunable also.

 

[Kern Dog]

Your key words are street car and driveablity
You may give up at most 10% more likely 6-7% your still in 500 range.
Stick with the lower ratio & stop second guessing and have some fun.
I would also ditch that mallory gutted dist and get anew one or a old original style leave it with a long advance curve and put the vacuum advance to a venturi vacuum port it will help mpg, ring life and keep cleaner oil it has no effect on idle or wot and they are tunable also.

I go back and forth on the head gasket thickness.
Regarding the distributor, I do have a few stock type ones here that would need to be modified. As I understand it, they need to have the slots shortened by welding & filing. The Mallory gutted MP ones are adjustable. The only flaw I see with the Mopar Performance/Mallory units is the light weights that can make the timing a little unstable. I can see this as being more of a problem if I were trying to be a competitive racer or running at the edge of detonation. My goal is to get to a safe zone where even with hot weather and a momentary lean condition, I'd not knock.
I'm not against trying things, so if the head gaskets don't help things, I may revisit the ignition system for a solution. Thanks!

 

[70bigblockdodge]

The quick unstable curve is what makes them a crappy street dist, they are actually a good strip piece easy adjust quick curve that is all in way before converter once you know your initial and total set it and forget it.