Cam is in, car is running, now the TUNING begins!

[Kern Dog]

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Ignition.html[/url]

Call him or use the chat feature on his website, he's always been really helpful when I have questions.

I still say it is the distributor.

Whether or not the compression is too high, I may check this out as well. Thanks!

 

[Supershafts]

Never disputed you would lose horsepower.. Never disputed you wouldn't gain power by a bigger carburetor. The power gained/lost is not enough to notice on the street, but dyno junkies would be all over it and condemn you for 5-10HP lost at 6,500RPM with an 850 over spending a grand on a tuned, custom dominator. I have put thousands of miles on my Mopar in the past two years idling and driving in heavy traffic.. Do you really honestly believe roller lifters and the valve train they require would last in these street conditions? If you do, you are being very, very unrealistic.

I would bet it's MORE than 5-10 hp at 6500, if we were discussing a 440 with a 230@50 cam vs a 440 with a 260@50 cam i'd agree that a carb change might not be the huge help.
When comparing a carb change with a 440 and that of a 490/500 is a totally different animal and i would expect huge changes.

I do have a solid roller on the street, i may not drive a thousand miles a week, but over years and years of street use the worst issue is having to change the rollers, and that is ONLY if you run cams that are very aggressive and have big spring psi.

There is no way street driving is hard on a roller, rpms are what punish valve springs, they make more heat at rpm then idling, it's why you add in squirters or spray bars to cool the springs.
I have been using solid rollers on the street in the 280+@50 range for a long time in my strokers i have no street complaints, i don't see street use beating up my springs.


However getting back to Gregs issue....

Greg i give you the benefit of the doubt that you have CHECKED things as you do it.
For example when you do your timing adjustments you have done them and then checked that you don't have a dist problem and checked that if you set the timing at say 30 it stays at 30 even after 3000 rpm.

I think 67sat and 19polar are onto something, you could have a dist that is over advancing .

Also, what is half throttle mean...... half throttle isn't helpful in finding a problem, remember on the internet we aren't experiencing the car as you are, we experience it thru details

You could say i get pinging at half throttle and it starts at ____ rpm and remains even at up to ____ rpm

 

[Kern Dog]

Thanks everyone.
When I wrote half throttle, I truly mean halfway to the floor. All of the different jets and power valves, plus with both carburetors, I can usually feel where the secondaries are starting to come in. The engine speed doesn't seem to matter, but I will try again.
Elsewhere, a guy asked about exhaust size. I have 2 1/2" pipes into Flowmaster mufflers, then 2 1/2" tailpipes. Also, I was asked if there was any chance of oil getting in through the intake. I have seen some oil laying in the valley pan but thought it could have been from the PCV hose at the base of the carb. It had a bit of a loose fit so I cut an inch from it for a better fit.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

99% of roller valve train requires 'big spring psi' for any roller cam worth mentioning. You can put a reasonable, street solid lifter cam (like he just done) in a car and it'll last a decade with proper lubrication and good quality lifters. For a dual plane intake, you're going to need more carb than a single plane hands down. I run a modified proform/holley 750 with my Victor. If I was running a dual plane, I would choose an 850. I love the dominator look and flow, but bigger is not always better unless you plan on running 7,000 RPM's with a real big port, high flowing cylinder head and intake to match.

Check your cylinder PSI again, I still say it is too high for the pump gas as I am only 10.25:1 and borderline (180psi) on 93 (most gas is infused with 10% ethanol anyways). Buy a gallon or two of 110, empty the tank, dump it in, and see your results. Heck of a lot cheaper than shooting from the hip. If it doesn't ping, toss in some thicker head gaskets and call it a day. If it does, you know you have problems elsewhere.

 

[Kern Dog]

Check your cylinder PSI again, I still say it is too high for the pump gas as I am only 10.25:1 and borderline (180psi) on 93 (most gas is infused with 10% ethanol anyways). Buy a gallon or two of 110, empty the tank, dump it in, and see your results. Heck of a lot cheaper than shooting from the hip. If it doesn't ping, toss in some thicker head gaskets and call it a day. If it does, you know you have problems elsewhere.

I would love to run the thicker head gaskets. I still have echos of IQ52, Cranky and a few others that are positive that it will not help. The nugget of hope I have that it WILL work is that it DID work for me back in 2006. Maybe I was just lucky then, I don't know.

This morning I went back to the car. I found a small amount of oil on the valley pan beneath the intake and also toward the back. The end rails are properly secured, so the only thing I can figure is that the oil is either coming in from the intake bolts, around the intake or from the valve covers.
I smeared Permatex non hardening on the intake bolts, so I doubt it is that. I found that I was able to turn the intake bolts another 1/4 turn! I thought I had them tightened right. Both vaslve covers are wet on their sides that face the intake. Both heads have a thin film of oil on the section between the valve cover and the intake. This makes me think that maybe oil is migrating up from the valley, past the valley tin and maybe into the combustion chambers.

After tigtening the intake, i ran a long 5/16" hose from the dual fuel line to a guage I taped to the windshield. I made 5 WOT runs to check fuel pressure. The first 2 runs had ZERO detonation! I was absolutely wigglly, then on the 3rd run the knock came back. Maybe the cooler engine was the reason for the no-knock?
The fuel pressure was 7-8 at idle, about 7 at part throttle cruise and it dropped to 5 at WOT. It never went below 5 though.

I'm going to pull the valve covers to replace the gaskets. They both had a tiny drip at the lower rear corners anyway. Of course I will look for any signs of additional leaks. I'm also going to replace the valley pan. I'll use the paper gaskets this time too.
Wish me luck!

Oh, I forgot....I sent an email to FBO. They responded this morning with more questions on the combo I'm running. I'm waiting to hear back.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

I haven't priced race fuel lately, but a gallon of 110 should be less than $10. That would be a really cheap troubleshooting method in my mind if it keeps it up.

 

[Kern Dog]

I have 5 gallons of 110 leaded. I got called away to a job out of town, so I've been unable to road test after the intake gasket swap.

 

[Kern Dog]

Last week I sent an email to Don at FBO. He pretty much thought my whole combo was out of whack. Car too heavy for the converter stall, Cam too big for the converter stall, GV Overdrive not a good match for the cam......
He suggested a smaller cam. This is where I get confused again. I'm sure he read all my stats regarding the compression ratio.

 

[coloradodave]

Greg, This gets down to the old saying about asking 10 different people a question and getting 10 totally different opinions. I wish I could recommend a savvy engine builder in Sacramento whose opinion you could take to the bank, but I just don't know any since I haven't been in this area very long. I think if it were me and I was having your problems, I'd hang out at Sacramento Raceway and ask the Mopar guys who show up and run well, who they recommend. If you hear the same name a few times, that's the guy I'd seek out. As you have already found out, the opinions on these forums vary widely; sometimes from experience and sometimes, not so much...listening to all of them might drive you to drinking...
I hope you get this resolved so that you can enjoy your car.

 

[Kern Dog]

Thank you Dave.

 

[67Satty]

Last week I sent an email to Don at FBO. He pretty much thought my whole combo was out of whack. Car too heavy for the converter stall, Cam too big for the converter stall, GV Overdrive not a good match for the cam......
He suggested a smaller cam. This is where I get confused again. I'm sure he read all my stats regarding the compression ratio.

I thought he would've been more help than that. But, I've gotten him on the phone when he's been like that too.

At this point, if it was mine, I would try one more thing - getting the distributor recurved by someone who really knows what they are doing. If that doesn't do it, I would just run the thicker head gaskets to lower the compression. You don't have a quench motor anyway so it can't do anything but help at this point. JMHO but you've tried everything else.

 

[Sweet5ltr]

If you follow the guidelines in the D.C. or Mopar engine manual you usually don't run into these issues. I run the most wildest cam anyone imagines in a street driven car, and it is very tame in a stock stroke 440. I think we tend to over complicate things. If it was me, I would have left the thick cylinder head gaskets on, so what if it loses 'the quench', it actually runs on pump fuel.. Any reputable engine builder will tell you the same thing, to drop down your compression and run reasonable timing for today's pump gas which is between 30-32* with aluminum heads. The camshaft did everything you needed it to do, and more. I have stated in the past a 4,000RPM converter would work better for your efforts, but for some that isn't street able. We all aren't out their making 1/8th and 1/4 mile passes from red light to red light. We can all make additional power, or have a better combination in some way; even the pro's. Just run with what you have, get it street friendly, and ENJOY IT!

 

[Kern Dog]

I would just run the thicker head gaskets to lower the compression. You don't have a quench motor anyway so it can't do anything but help at this point. JMHO but you've tried everything else.

The thicker gaskets did help when I tried them in 2006.

- - - Updated - - -

If it was me, I would have left the thick cylinder head gaskets on, so what if it loses 'the quench', it actually runs on pump fuel.. Any reputable engine builder will tell you the same thing, to drop down your compression and run reasonable timing for today's pump gas which is between 30-32* with aluminum heads.

I am going back and forth on this subject. Thicker gaskets to lower the compression or thinner to get more quench.
Today I spoke with Jim at Racer Brown cams. He first thought I should zero deck the block and use a .039 gasket to get better quench. I told him I would prefer to keep the engine in the car. He then suggested going to a THINNER .027 Cometic head gasket to close up the quench distance from the current .056 to .044. I have also heard this from some other smart guys but it just seems too good to believe. Higher compression but NO detonation???
Thicker head gasket or thinner? I wonder if both would help me but in different ways. Thicker gasket lowers compression and if I already had no quench, the lower compression helps. Thinner raises compression but also improves quench which in theory offsets any negatives of higher compression.

?????????

I drove the car this morning and was happy to see no oil leaks. It still knocked at WOT. I mixed in 3 1/2 gallons of 110 Sunoco and drove again ZERO knock and the car was scary fast! I still have the timing set to 17 initial, 30 total. Surely it would be even faster with more timing, but I was so happy it ran so great, I didn't stop to bump the timing.

 

[beezee]

I agree with Jim @ Racer Brown for quench as I have a 440 4.15 stroker decked .020 zero deck . Ross pistons .040 bore estimate 11.2 compression,ootb rpm heads,hydraulic flat tappet cam .525/.521 lift, 244/256 @ .050 cam,holley street dominator,950 quickfuel, msd pro billet dizzy and msd 6a,2" TTI headerinto 3" exhaust,SMR 3000 converter ,Dana 60 373 gear, no detonation with 94 octane pump gas .It does ping with 91 octane under very " hard " throttle but I have an adjustable dial timing control mounted on the tach to retard when this happens.Running 18 degree initial,34 total, all in by 3000 (using the black 18 degree bushing 1 silver light and 1 blue light spring).Best ET to date is 11.70 @ 116 mph. I,ve just installed the Fast EZ efi and just need to fine tune,my buddies say I shouldn,t touch it as it runs too good...lol

 

[IQ52]

I would love to run the thicker head gaskets. I still have echos of IQ52, Cranky and a few others that are positive that it will not help. The nugget of hope I have that it WILL work is that it DID work for me back in 2006. Maybe I was just lucky then, I don't know.

This morning I went back to the car. I found a small amount of oil on the valley pan beneath the intake and also toward the back. The end rails are properly secured, so the only thing I can figure is that the oil is either coming in from the intake bolts, around the intake or from the valve covers.
I smeared Permatex non hardening on the intake bolts, so I doubt it is that. I found that I was able to turn the intake bolts another 1/4 turn! I thought I had them tightened right. Both vaslve covers are wet on their sides that face the intake. Both heads have a thin film of oil on the section between the valve cover and the intake. This makes me think that maybe oil is migrating up from the valley, past the valley tin and maybe into the combustion chambers.

After tigtening the intake, i ran a long 5/16" hose from the dual fuel line to a guage I taped to the windshield. I made 5 WOT runs to check fuel pressure. The first 2 runs had ZERO detonation! I was absolutely wigglly, then on the 3rd run the knock came back. Maybe the cooler engine was the reason for the no-knock?
The fuel pressure was 7-8 at idle, about 7 at part throttle cruise and it dropped to 5 at WOT. It never went below 5 though.

I'm going to pull the valve covers to replace the gaskets. They both had a tiny drip at the lower rear corners anyway. Of course I will look for any signs of additional leaks. I'm also going to replace the valley pan. I'll use the paper gaskets this time too.
Wish me luck!

Oh, I forgot....I sent an email to FBO. They responded this morning with more questions on the combo I'm running. I'm waiting to hear back.

Just a note here on head gaskets.

I have been watching the thread and most everything involved in this thread and others. I would like to state that I NEVER said that a thicker gasket would not work. I have run 11.9:1 compression, with .160" quench iron heads (not .039", .045" .054 or .065, but one hundred and sixty thousanths), on 91 octane pump gas. Quench is nice if other things aren't messed up, but if you aren't willing to to tear it down and do it right, or aren't willing to start right, you have to resort to band-aids.

I have been deliberately silent for the most part because this whole thing has been chaotic. With so many people offering suggestions in so many different directions there was no chance to solve this quickly. I have said before, Find ONE person who knows what they are doing because they have been there BEFORE and let them do their magic. I have no intention to get on here and argue with 20 others who are just guessing because they "heard about" this "one guy" or "I read about" or "my buddy told me that Harold told him". You get what you pay for. What is a free engine design worth?

 

[Kern Dog]

Just a note here on head gaskets.

I have been watching the thread and most everything involved in this thread and others. I would like to state that I NEVER said that a thicker gasket would not work. Quench is nice if other things aren't messed up, but if you aren't willing to to tear it down and do it right, or aren't willing to start right, you have to resort to band-aids.

I have been deliberately silent for the most part because this whole thing has been chaotic.

Sorry, Jim. My memory must have blanked for a moment.
I just remember many guys telling me about how valueable "quench" is and that the thicker head gaskets are akin to pissing on free money.
I like the theory, but I am just worried that I'll continue to have problems with the higher compression with a thinner gasket or that I'll only cure some of the problem.
The .060 Cometics helped in 2006. That is proof that I actually saw happen right in front of me. The thinner gasket/Improved quench idea might also work but I have yet to try it.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cgt-c5464-075/overview/make/dodge

This Cometic has a 4.50 bore, a .075 thickness and drops the compression to 9.89. It costs a bunch for them but if I'm able to cruise the car and have reasonable power without melting the pistons, I may go this way. Years down the road I may do another teardown and zero deck the block like the experts recommend

 

[rev.ronnie]

Go to a competent dyno shop and tune it correctly.
I spent 10 hours on the dyno with my 440-6 getting it dialed in. I can't even imagine bending over freshly pained fenders doing "hit and miss" tuning...even with fender covers.

We won't even build an engine anymore unless it goes right to the dyno after completion. It does help that my friend's dyno shop is 5 miles away.

 

[Garys1969RR]

The only way you will know if thinner or thicker is better is to try em both. In the real world you need to rely on first hand experience. This is what I tried: My 451 with 906 heads and 12.5 to 1 C/R seemed to have more ping issues than the 915 heads with .037 quench and 13.3 to 1 C/R. A tight quench area is very helpful. What cyl heads are you using? I have only been able to eliminate ping in this motor by using 100 Sunoco, or a mix of 91 Premium and 100 Sunoco. The latest mix has been 3 gallons of 100, 2 gallons of 91, and 1 gallon of E-85 which is 105 octane. And this mix has also resulted in the best 1/4 mile time of 12.58@109 MPH, 5600 feet elevation. If the motor gets a little too warm it pings with this mix. So I am running right on the edge. The easiest/quickest way to solve your problem is to run high octane fuel, as you have already found out. After that, your gonna have to pull the heads and make some changes there. IQ 52 is demonstrating (this weekend) how a low compression engine can make ALOT of HP and torque by using good high flow cyl heads, and the correct combination of parts. He has a thread here giving some results. Good Luck!

- - - Updated - - -

I call this the 3-2-1 mix. A 3-1-1 mix was too low of octane and would ping some.

 

[Kern Dog]

Gary, I have heard that quench is an important from many people. If I were building the engine again, I would probably zero deck the block like so many others suggest, then use a standard .039 Fel Pro head gasket for a .039 quench distance. The idea of a stepped or reverse dome piston is interesting too.
I am not interested in pulling the engine to do this. The one nagging thing holding me back from using a thinner head gasket for more quench is that I worry that even if it does help, I'll still be on the edge. I want some wiggle room in case I get some marginal fuel when out on a trip somewhere.
Before all of this stuff, when the car sat for a few months, it would knock a bit when I drove it until I added fresh gas. I attribute this to the fuel degrading a bit over the idle time. I am tired of having a situation where I have to be on guard all the time. I think that while more quench may stop the knocking, it still may be within reach if any single aspect of the combination falls short. The .075 thick gasket would lower the compression to 9.89. When I used the .060 gaskets several years ago, The car ran great but may have also been close to the edge. The .075 gasket may give me the wiggle room I'm looking for.

 

[coloradodave]

"I call this the 3-2-1 mix. A 3-1-1 mix was too low of octane and would ping some."

Man, Gary, that would be a hassle in a race car, but a nightmare in a street car....I guess I'm too old to have a regime like that just to drive my car.