electrical issues, dimming lights, occasional stalling, rough idle at stop

[Moparnocar]

Well, my alternator seems to check out. He tested all the diodes and then put it on another machine to test it. It passed the tests fine. He put in some new brushes anyway becuase mine were a little worn. He did this all in front of me. He put it back on his tester after this and said it was better with the new brushes. He didnt charge me for any of this. I will put it back on the car tmrw and see if the new brushes changed anything.

Assuming it does NOT change I will try turning the idle up even further. I think it's at about 800 when I'm in DRIVE with foot on brake. It rises to about 1000 when I shift into PARK or NEUTRAL.

What RPM should my idle be at in everyone's experience?

What's the highest idle speed I should go to? If i go high enough it will solve the problem I'm sure ... but then again I dont want a ridiculously fast idle. I have a timing light to test RPM.

How fast should the car move forward if I take my foot off the brake. Right now it quickly starts to move 2-3 mph if I take foot of brake. Feels on the faster side of "normal" to me already.

Even if that does help, I will likely have to address the 0.9v voltage drop. I'm thinking I will need to trace the power from battery to alternator and then address any bad connections. Hopefully it's all somewhat accessible and that it's only a bad connection and not a bad length of wire.

I also have one of those new electronic voltage regulators coming in the mail which I'm hoping will help.

Any thoughts ?

I idle at 650 ish, I wouldn't go any higher than 800, it's gonna wanna creep, little harder on trans etc

Have you drop tested from the starter solenoid to bulkhead? Do the outside then inside to compare . Also test wires to regulator, and fuseable links

 

[Evan Frucht]

Also I think someone mention here about the fusable links? Do they just mean to check the fuse box? To see if clips on the fusebox are making proper connection with the fuse?

From what I remember. Most of the corrosion is in the fuse box. I wire brushed those connectors but it was deeply pitted. Also the bulkhead was suspect months ago for various reasons that led me to clean it. I took out the male connectors/terminals and cleaned them with sandpaper. It was hard to get the female connectors out of the plastic block without snapping them off the wires so I may have just tried to scrape them out, can't remember. So basically both the fuse box and bulkhead could be suspect. I was thinking about just biting the bullet and and getting one of the reproduction fuse boxes and bulkhead connector sets. Or atleast getting the metal terminals they sell to repair them.

 

[Moparnocar]

Also I think someone mention here about the fusable links? Do they just mean to check the fuse box? To see if clips on the fusebox are making proper connection with the fuse?

From what I remember. Most of the corrosion is in the fuse box. I wire brushed those connectors but it was deeply pitted. Also the bulkhead was suspect months ago for various reasons that led me to clean it. I took out the male connectors/terminals and cleaned them with sandpaper. It was hard to get the female connectors out of the plastic block without snapping them off the wires so I may have just tried to scrape them out, can't remember. So basically both the fuse box and bulkhead could be suspect. I was thinking about just biting the bullet and and getting one of the reproduction fuse boxes and bulkhead connector sets. Or atleast getting the metal terminals they sell to repair them.

Fuseable links are those wires off the starter relay that usually have a plastic tag on them. They feel different than regular wire. They are made to burn up under a high, constant overload. Not instant like a fuse

You need to use a small bristle brush, and some pro level contact cleaner ,not the crc, on the bulkead and fusebox, if it's repairable.

Replacing is the best option, that's where I think it is

However, I like to find the problem before replacing anything. My money tree didn't grow this year

 

[Evan Frucht]

Fuseable links are those wires off the starter relay that usually have a plastic tag on them. They feel different than regular wire. They are made to burn up under a high, constant overload. Not instant like a fuse

You need to use a small bristle brush, and some pro level contact cleaner ,not the crc, on the bulkead and fusebox, if it's repairable.

Replacing is the best option, that's where I think it is

However, I like to find the problem before replacing anything. My money tree didn't grow this year

What is the pro level contact cleaner ? I looked it up and cant find that exact product name. Do you have a link maybe. Why do you prefer it over the CRC brand?

 

[matthon]

Quick and easy way to 'fix' the bulkhead, pull all the wires out, cut all the connectors off. Pull all the wires thru the bulkhead from the engine bay, and crimp a new covered connector on. Crimp new connectors on the interior wires and plug together.

I also replaced my original fuse box with a Painless 7 circuit box and a power hub. I detailed everything I did in a thread on here. Turns out to be more circuits than the original fuse box.

 

[Evan Frucht]

I idle at 650 ish, I wouldn't go any higher than 800, it's gonna wanna creep, little harder on trans etc

Have you drop tested from the starter solenoid to bulkhead? Do the outside then inside to compare . Also test wires to regulator, and fuseable links

I dont have my service manual with me. I probably need to just look at wiring diagrams to trace how they wired it at factory but...

Does the power wire go from battery > thru starter solenoid > thru bulkhead > then to alternator > then back out of alternator to VR and then to ammeter or something? Or is that incorrect

I'm wondering what the starter solenoid has to do with this

 

[miller]

Wow...where do I start? No kind of electrician, actually hate messing with it, but...gotta have it. (My two youngest sons ARE electricians, but on office buildings, and such.)

On the firewall block, both the male/female terminals have locking tabs, that keep the terminals in the block. Female has a tab on the upper surface...use a small thin blade to push the tab down, and the terminal will pull out. Male has the flat blade, that has a open slot in it...push the thinner part of the blade in, and that terminal will pull out. Both go back in, by putting the tabs back into place, and pushing the terminals back into the block.

Consider, for ANY wiring circuit, such as your headlights, the ENTIRE circuit must be in good shape. Bulbs, wiring terminals, wire itself, any and all switches in that circuit, and last but not least, good grounds. Period. Any thing else...your flogging a dead horse.

Fuse block sounds like some of the problem. Fuseable links...check the wiring diagrams. Best I remember, 64s did not have any!

Off the top of my head, power (hot) through the system, through/from the alternator. The power feed from the firewall, goes through the firewall block, to and from the ammeter, to the fuse block, and power is distributed from there.
Tells you how important the wires, and the connections at the ammeter are.

Anyway...good luck!

 

[miller]

Couple 'for what it's worth'.

Idle speed. (I'm sporting a crossram on my 440) After it's warmed up, idle speed is 750, in gear it drops to about 725. More than a 50 rpm drop, means a problem in ignition, fuel mixture, or both.

Alternator, how mine acts. 80 amp, reading the stock ammeter, shows a slight charge. Don't have any problems with that. Same with headlights on.

 

[Moparnocar]

What is the pro level contact cleaner ? I looked it up and cant find that exact product name. Do you have a link maybe. Why do you prefer it over the CRC brand?

Deoxit is the brand, in my experience, I've saved alot of coroded plugs with it, it's on Amazon

The battery power goes to the starter relay. From that stud, the fuseable links provide power to the inside of the car through the bulkhead

HOPEFULLY you have a wiring diagram, makes it easier to trace the power wires

Like another guy said, I've cut a few fuseable links, and bypassed the bulkhead because the bulkhead was too melted from poor connection. Replacement is best option tho

 

[Moparnocar]

Wow...where do I start? No kind of electrician, actually hate messing with it, but...gotta have it. (My two youngest sons ARE electricians, but on office buildings, and such.)

On the firewall block, both the male/female terminals have locking tabs, that keep the terminals in the block. Female has a tab on the upper surface...use a small thin blade to push the tab down, and the terminal will pull out. Male has the flat blade, that has a open slot in it...push the thinner part of the blade in, and that terminal will pull out. Both go back in, by putting the tabs back into place, and pushing the terminals back into the block.

Consider, for ANY wiring circuit, such as your headlights, the ENTIRE circuit must be in good shape. Bulbs, wiring terminals, wire itself, any and all switches in that circuit, and last but not least, good grounds. Period. Any thing else...your flogging a dead horse.

Fuse block sounds like some of the problem. Fuseable links...check the wiring diagrams. Best I remember, 64s did not have any!

Off the top of my head, power (hot) through the system, through/from the alternator. The power feed from the firewall, goes through the firewall block, to and from the ammeter, to the fuse block, and power is distributed from there.
Tells you how important the wires, and the connections at the ammeter are.

Anyway...good luck!

I've never worked on a 64, maybe they don't have fuseable links, if not, very interesting!

 

[Evan Frucht]

I dont have my service manual with me. I probably need to just look at wiring diagrams to trace how they wired it at factory but...

Does the power wire go from battery > thru starter solenoid > thru bulkhead > then to alternator > then back out of alternator to VR and then to ammeter or something? Or is that incorrect

Couple 'for what it's worth'.

Idle speed. (I'm sporting a crossram on my 440) After it's warmed up, idle speed is 750, in gear it drops to about 725. More than a 50 rpm drop, means a problem in ignition, fuel mixture, or both.

Alternator, how mine acts. 80 amp, reading the stock ammeter, shows a slight charge. Don't have any problems with that. Same with headlights on.

Well it definately drops atleast 100 rpm if not more like 200 rpm once I put it into gear. I dont think its fuel becuase I've gone through the carb and its clean and properly adjusted as far as I can tell. Dont really think it's the fuel pump, or the filter or anything like that. The car runs fine and doesnt really have any problems other that the occasionally stalling out at idle, rough idle that slows down too much when in gear, dimming/pulsing lights, high beams flickering off, erratic wipers that sometimes work.

 

[Moparnocar]

Yes, they use the starter relay as kind of a power terminal, that power transfers from the battery cables to wires leading to the bulkhead to power stuff up

 

[Evan Frucht]

Well the local alternator guy may have made the problem worse. He didnt have one of the old type of brushes that my alternator used so he modified another one. I saw him do this and thought he knew what he was doing...

Just installed the alternator eith the new modified brushes he installed and now the problem is much worse and it leads me to believe this whole problem is in fact related to the alternator or some kind of charging system failure. The amp gauge is more sporadic with random jumping and now the car will just immediately start to shudder and stall out when I put it into gear.

I'm gonna continue to check wiring but I'm thinking of just getting a rebuilt alternator from napa and seeing what that does, if it doesnt do anything I can always return it... I really wanted to be happy with this local alternator guy but now I'm not sure.

 

[Moparnocar]

Well the local alternator guy may have made the problem worse. He didnt have one of the old type of brushes that my alternator used so he modified another one. I saw him do this and thought he knew what he was doing...

Just installed the alternator eith the new modified brushes he installed and now the problem is much worse and it leads me to believe this whole problem is in fact related to the alternator or some kind of charging system failure. The amp gauge is more sporadic with random jumping and now the car will just immediately start to shudder and stall out when I put it into gear.

I'm gonna continue to check wiring but I'm thinking of just getting a rebuilt alternator from napa and seeing what that does, if it doesnt do anything I can always return it... I really wanted to be happy with this local alternator guy but now I'm not sure.

I assume he tested it, correct?

Back in the old part selling days, we would have new alternators actually fail on the Bench, but pass after running them a minute. The square brush face had to wear in to work properly

Wonder what Happened there?

 

[Evan Frucht]

I assume he tested it, correct?

Back in the old part selling days, we would have new alternators actually fail on the Bench, but pass after running them a minute. The square brush face had to wear in to work properly

Wonder what Happened there?

Ya it may just be more of the same stuff. I'm gonna give the alternator a shot. He did a bench test in front of me and I could see it pass. Its probabaly just in the wiring. I may just run solid wire through the bulkhead and see what that does because im noticing just jiggling the bulkhead connection will make either make it better or worse... I was hesitant to mess with the bulkhead because I didnt suspect it was a huge problem before and thought "if it not broken why fix it?" But now I'm realizing it is pretty messed up and im having a lot of electric problems potentially because of it.

 

[Moparnocar]

Ya it may just be more of the same stuff. I'm gonna give the alternator a shot. He did a bench test in front of me and I could see it pass. Its probabaly just in the wiring. I may just run solid wire through the bulkhead and see what that does because im noticing just jiggling the bulkhead connection will make either make it better or worse... I was hesitant to mess with the bulkhead because I didnt suspect it was a huge problem before and thought "if it not broken why fix it?" But now I'm realizing it is pretty messed up and im having a lot of electric problems potentially because of it.

And possibly a fire

 

[RJRENTON]

Ya it may just be more of the same stuff. I'm gonna give the alternator a shot. He did a bench test in front of me and I could see it pass. Its probabaly just in the wiring. I may just run solid wire through the bulkhead and see what that does because im noticing just jiggling the bulkhead connection will make either make it better or worse... I was hesitant to mess with the bulkhead because I didnt suspect it was a huge problem before and thought "if it not broken why fix it?" But now I'm realizing it is pretty messed up and im having a lot of electric problems potentially because of it.

I concur wholeheartedly...
The brush, slip rings and rotor have EVERYTHING to do with the alternators ability to charge and respond to the connected load. This is in addition to the voltage regulator and the associated wiring. Unless BOTH brushes are making even contact to their associated slip ring segments, the alternators output voltage AND generated current will be erratic....ranging ftom no output to normal operation. Your "rebuilder" should have checked the rotor, its slip rings, brushes and brush holders....failure to do so would not provide me a good feeling about his ability. He should have checked the conditions of the diodes and stator windings while it was disassembled for continuity, grounds and internal connections. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON

 

[miller]

I may just run solid wire through the bulkhead

What do you mean, 'solid' wire? Not house wire type, right?

I've never worked on a 64, maybe they don't have fuseable links, if not, very interesting!

Don't take this to the bank, but I don't think fuseable links were used until after 65/66.

Sorry to hear all the problems, Evan. I'm no expert on alternators, but know when they work. Those round backs are fairly common, through several years, and depending also on application for each year, amp loads were increased. Maybe even for station wagons.

Yep, try another alternator, maybe a 60 amp, that would work fine for your 64. Charging systems on 62-65s were usually underrated (not enough meat!). For fleet cars (taxi/police), that's why it was bumped up to 55-60, with parallel wiring.

Get into the service manual, and look up the voltage regulator. If it's stock, has the removable cover, and how to test it. (I'd do that, before trying another alternator.)
If the VR is bad, it can mess up the alternator, if ran too long.

 

[Mick56]

Are you sure the belt isn't slipping? They don't always squeal. Run the engine at a fast idle for a minute, shut it off, then carefully touch the alternator pully. If it is hot, the belts is slipping. The belt should be flush or above the edges of the pulley. If it is lower, the belt is worn out.

 

[Evan Frucht]

I concur wholeheartedly...
The brush, slip rings and rotor have EVERYTHING to do with the alternators ability to charge and respond to the connected load. This is in addition to the voltage regulator and the associated wiring. Unless BOTH brushes are making even contact to their associated slip ring segments, the alternators output voltage AND generated current will be erratic....ranging ftom no output to normal operation. Your "rebuilder" should have checked the rotor, its slip rings, brushes and brush holders....failure to do so would not provide me a good feeling about his ability. He should have checked the conditions of the diodes and stator windings while it was disassembled for continuity, grounds and internal connections. Just my opinion of course.
BOB RENTON

He did check all the diodes and tested the continuity of some other parts when he had it on the bench. I saw on his bench top multimeter that each of the diodes had exactly the same reading. He did a bench test before and after changing the brushes. Trying to stay hopeful. I also asked him how many amps my unit was putting out and he said 65 amps.

I'm halfway through the bulkhead "upgrade" and will update once I fire her up.