First questions on my 727 rebuild journey

[493 Mike]

Once again I concur with Doug. I would replace the front clutch retainer bushing (on every narrow/early model retainer) and tighten the end play of the entire assembly. The factory realized and corrected the front clutch retainer bushing width, as it wasn't wide enough to properly support the load so less end play helps to keep the retainer from "cocking" on the stator support.
I have installed dozens of Transgo shift kits over the decades and they always performed as advertised. TG makes a "No Yo Yo" kit with a modified manual valve that allows the pump to fill the converter in "park" which speeds up initial engagement (due to converter drain back). Used quite a few B&M kits also with good results. I've been through at least half a dozen parts suppliers over time and always had good results too.
I put a TG shift kit in my 1994 V-10 3/4, 4x4 (ordered new) at 60,000 miles and it shifts as good now (133,000) as it did the day I installed it. Happy days!
Mike

 

[AR67GTX]

Thanks - what do you think about the accumulator bore scoring and rear clutch pack clearance of .021 inch?

On end play for the entire assembly - you mean reduce the input shaft end play (mine was .067 in). Is that primarily adjustment of the thrust shim between the input and output shafts?

I probably should add this is a stock 440 HP except for 800 cfm carb and 2-1/2 TTI exhaust. It will stay that way as it's a full power and factory AC barge. Has a new 3.55 posi rear to get it moving.

Once again I concur with Doug. I would replace the front clutch retainer bushing (on every narrow/early model retainer) and tighten the end play of the entire assembly. The factory realized and corrected the front clutch retainer bushing width, as it wasn't wide enough to properly support the load so less end play helps to keep the retainer from "cocking" on the stator support.
I have installed dozens of Transgo shift kits over the decades and they always performed as advertised. TG makes a "No Yo Yo" kit with a modified manual valve that allows the pump to fill the converter in "park" which speeds up initial engagement (due to converter drain back). Used quite a few B&M kits also with good results. I've been through at least half a dozen parts suppliers over time and always had good results too.
I put a TG shift kit in my 1994 V-10 3/4, 4x4 (ordered new) at 60,000 miles and it shifts as good now (133,000) as it did the day I installed it. Happy days!
Mike

 

[miller]

For the most part, agree with the guys! Something I taught myself, was the only one I have to satisfy is myself, on anything I rebuild.

Agree with leaving the over-run outer race in place, if you feel it's in good shape. I'll have to admit, I'm usually too critical on my parts. Too damn particular.

The shaft journals look fine. Polish 'em, and go on. Pump...be sure to check all your clearances, even the scarred outer pump gear. If there's enough meat, you can clean it up...but, personally wouldn't use it, as it is.

The piston bore...yeah, they get scored like that, especially if any trash is in the fluid. But the ring itself didn't look like a beaut either. The rings are the only thing the normally make contact in the bore. Main thing is ring gap/contact in there.

All called decisions!

 

[miller]

On end play for the entire assembly - you mean reduce the input shaft end play (mine was .067 in). Is that primarily adjustment of the thrust shim between the input and output shafts?

Yes. Can't remember exact details, though I recall differences between some years of that washer's material. Believe the bronze spacer is best...can be bought various thickness.
Anyone want to help an old codger here?

 

[dvw]

End play of the entire unit is controlled by the #1, #2 thrust washers. Again not a critical part of proper function. The only issue with running to tight rear clutch clearance would be the rear clutch dragging in the reverse selection. Not really an issue unless it's a plow truck. To update to the wide bushing drum (clutch retainer) the reaction support needs to be swapped as well. As the reaction support is part of the pump assembly. If the pump were to be replaced now would be the time to upgrade. The narrow bushing drum will function satifactorilly for many miles. Unless it needed a pump or the ring land area of the drum was worn I wouldn't bother.
Doug

 

[AR67GTX]

What's a good rule of thumb for bushing/shaft clearances? Probably depends on bushing size but is .003 to .004 good for a .621 in shaft (front input bushing in front clutch hub) and .005 clearance for a 1.172 inch shaft (pump hub bushing and input shaft) generally acceptable?

I think I've about got most everything but the valve body sized up. It looks like I'll probably just need a basic re-seal and gasket kit, bushing kit, thrust washer kit, intermediate accumulator sleeve kit, torque converter and front planetary set. I may just get a rebuilt pump rather than trying to mess with re-bushing and rebuilding mine. If not I'll get a set of pump gears as mine measure out OK per Carl's book but they are on the higher end of tolerances. Probably put a TransGo TF1 kit in it. I don't see any reason to replace any of the clutches or bands since they look fine. I'll still have to open the valve body up and look at it.

 

[miller]

What's a good rule of thumb for bushing/shaft clearances? Probably depends on bushing size but is .003 to .004 good for a .621 in shaft (front input bushing in front clutch hub) and .005 clearance for a 1.172 inch shaft (pump hub bushing and input shaft) generally acceptable?

I usually don't bother measuring bushing/shaft clearance. The shafts are either in good shape, or their not. Bushings...far as I know, only come in standard sizes, so once installed, you get what you get.

 

[miller]

Main thing your looking at, on shaft/bushings, are good running surfaces. New bushings, after installed, in limit clearances usually fall right into place. Never had a problem on mine.

 

[493 Mike]

TF's are very kind to bushings. Turbo 350's almost always need all of them replaced. SUPERIOR ENGINEERING!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike

 

[AR67GTX]

I was about ready to order a Hughes 24-20 or 24-25 converter when I stumbled on a thread mentioning Ultimate Converter Concepts and a Lenny - a custom rebuilder. So I sent him an email to see what he might be able to offer based on a rebuild of my 11 TQ. I understand 11 inch cores are sort of in short supply so maybe I'll get green points for recycling.

Decided to order a gear set and rebuild/re-bush the pump. I'll check the new gears clearances against the old ones and use which ever set looks to be the tightest.

 

[oldbee]

Be careful- those bushings are kinda like cam bearings.. Soft.

 

[miller]

Sounds like a plan!
Bushings not hard to deal with, just needs to go in straight.

 

[AR67GTX]

Pulled the valve body apart today. Is it typical for them to be a little sludgy inside? Otherwise seems it good shape.

 

[oldbee]

"Sludgy"--maybe a little "blackish" fluid. All the sharp edges on the valves are to stop particles from getting where they don't need to be.

 

[oldbee]

Funny about "sludgy", after many years with semi-trucks I always rated with oil leakage is it ? Leak,seepage or other terms for how bad it really is.Kinda like gushing,trickling or a spot!!!

 

[Fran Blacker]

Pulled the valve body apart today. Is it typical for them to be a little sludgy inside? Otherwise seems it good shape.

 

[Fran Blacker]

How about picture of slugde and VB. How was the torque converter control valve?

 

[AR67GTX]

How about picture of slugde and VB. How was the torque converter control valve?

I took these more for help in reassembling the valve body later but they should show what it looked like upon opening it up. Not real bad but a few balls of sludge in dead in passages and a lot of the fluid was kind of like gear oil in places. Doesn't look bad from these photos.

 

[AR67GTX]

Here is another one. Also doesn't look too bad in the picture. I was just expecting the fluid to be a little more pristine in it. Most of the pieces have a light coat of brackish fluid on them.



I will have to study up and figure out which one of these several valves I've pulled out is the converter control valve. All of them so far look OK - a little lengthwise fine scoring on the skirts but otherwise sharp edges and clean.

 

[oldbee]

Looks about normal.