Here we go. One last time...

[Cornpatch MO]

Woah nelly, I didn't say that!
Just being ignorant and wanting to hear options is all - all I know from clutches has always been "go to parts store, fetch whatever rebuilt they have, have flywheel turned, bolt crap back together" sort of stuff.
There's a whole world of knowledge out there I don't know on these things.
What I DO know is that Centerforce is a quality name - and I've never installed one.

through all the years, I have had a lot of experience with clutches for street cars--especially back before the later technology. Then, you could not get a diaphram clutch that would not stick the pedal to the floor at a 6000rpm shift point. Even the big brand name expensive ones. Three finger Borg and Beck style ones were all that worked for me, and the pedal pressure was so high, it would break clutch linkage and pedal assemblys. My wife could not drive it as a daily driver.
I was away from manual trannys for several years, and so now with my Centerforce, I was just amazed with how far the tech. has come......................MO

 

[moparedtn]

I used a RobbMC ministarter on mine. It's even smaller than the Kota, and the solenoid can be rotated for clearance, also.

You know, I've looked at those. Pretty slick.
Then I look at the price and get a little choked up.

 

[moparedtn]

I remember this ( starters) being discussed in depth here, remember you can use the search window at the top of the page to find any keyword...
We are rooting for ya and keeping your health in our prayers!

Thanks, Mike. Much appreciated.

Yes, I'm well aware of how to search - for what it's worth in this type format, anyways.
I guess what I want to know specifically from someone who knows is - are all those mini-starters out there in the aftermarket any smaller than the Dakota where it counts (header clearance)?
Further, for the battery cable headed down there, I got so frustrated trying to undo mine with the Hedmans in the way that I wound up just cutting the damn thing in two (the Dakota starters' wiring terminates on top, RIGHT next to the block). There HAS to be a better way, like that $300 jobber from RobbMC that I can't justify paying for.

 

[moparedtn]

through all the years, I have had a lot of experience with clutches for street cars--especially back before the later technology. Then, you could not get a diaphram clutch that would not stick the pedal to the floor at a 6000rpm shift point. Even the big brand name expensive ones. Three finger Borg and Beck style ones were all that worked for me, and the pedal pressure was so high, it would break clutch linkage and pedal assemblys. My wife could not drive it as a daily driver.
I was away from manual trannys for several years, and so now with my Centerforce, I was just amazed with how far the tech. has come......................MO

I can mirror your experiences and sentiment on all this. I got to where I never trusted a diaphragm clutch and put up with those "3000 pound" B&B ones.
No, no way the wife could have driven this one the way it was now, either - and it wasn't any extreme pressure setup, either.
I've also got to figure out if this flywheel is going to survive another trip to the machine shop; it's already been there before and the machinist said it was ok, even though it does have some of those tiny stress cracks (he said they were "surface", not structural).
The most reasonable new ones I've found so far are the Hays ones ($315 or so); everyone else wants a ton more for theirs.

 

[Fran Blacker]

Those RobbMC starters from what I see it depends where you need the clearance. The main housing is the same diameter as the Denso, won't gain any clearance there.

 

[Cornpatch MO]

That would make sense.
Apparently, though, it's sometimes not needed - lookit my situation, for example.
It appears the four mounting bolts located the transmission close enough to centered in the bellhousing for it all to work.
I'm still shaking my head over that. Apparently I didn't just have a mystery motor, but a mystery transmission as well!

It's all moot anyways. This transmission will not be going back in the car.
It has the usual wear issues - pops out of 2nd on deceleration, synchros grind going into 3rd, etc. - and now to find out it's a small block transmission!
Sheesh.

Editorial comment : Not a professional by any means , but many years of trial and error and the school of hard knocks. Does a person want to do a job, or do a job right? Shop manuals and measuring tools are a MUST to do a job right. In the matter of flywheel, clutch and transmissions. All componets have to be matched to each other. Bellhouse--There are many variations. the clutch fork and the fork pivot are important . the location of the hole where the fork comes thru the housing ( not sure , but that hole may be in the same place for all the bellhouseings), the correct way of mounting your Z bar on both ends, and the right cluch linkage including the right Z bar. Very Important but most times overlooked--getting your bellhouse "run out" within tolerance. The bearing retainer hole in the bell being the right size for your retainer. .... The flywheel : not only being the right size but if for an internal or external balanced engine. The pilot bearing or whatever you use for locating the tranny input shaft MUST fit correctly for several reasons. ....The clutch, mostly common sense. getting the plate with the correct side out and the right number of splines. Using an alignment tool . Making sure you have the correct throwout bearing and that it fits into the clutch fork as it should. Also that there are no binds in the back and forth sliding on the input shaft. ....The tranny, probably the most important is the input shaft and the bearing. Fitting into the pilot bearing correctly and the input bearing not having excessive play after the tranny is bolted to the bell. The input shaft IMO is the number one reason for jumping out of gear. . Of course the rest of the tranny has to be without problem. Also the driveshaft splines and yoke cannot be to loose and the driveshaft must be straight and balanced.

Simple? not so much if it's done right, but worth the effort. ...............................MO

 

[Cornpatch MO]

I can mirror your experiences and sentiment on all this. I got to where I never trusted a diaphragm clutch and put up with those "3000 pound" B&B ones.
No, no way the wife could have driven this one the way it was now, either - and it wasn't any extreme pressure setup, either.
I've also got to figure out if this flywheel is going to survive another trip to the machine shop; it's already been there before and the machinist said it was ok, even though it does have some of those tiny stress cracks (he said they were "surface", not structural).
The most reasonable new ones I've found so far are the Hays ones ($315 or so); everyone else wants a ton more for theirs.

440 Source has them for I think, $100 (10 1/2" ) which can be used for external or internal balance( removable weight) No doubt China made as is all their other stuff. I was well impressed with the one I got and will not be going for high RPM. Fit perfect with starter ring already installed.....................MO

 

[moparedtn]

I'm seeing at least three different ring gear tooth counts on these things.
My bellhousing is specified to have a 143 tooth 11" one.
Do the various starters work with all the different tooth counts?

 

[coloradodave]

Ed, I use the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch set and love the easy pedal pressure. I've also had good luck with Hayes and McLeod over the years. Thousands of NAPA and other parts stores clutches are bought and installed every day with good results. High performance clutches are expensive due to their intended usage. Running treaded street tires and a pretty stock motor, the need for a $400.-$500. clutch set is questionable. Race parts are for racing. What is the actual use of your car honestly going to be?

 

[dieseldazzle]

The starters don't care what ring gear you have.

 

[oldbee]

Ed no real experience with 4-spds but go with 'coloradodave' IMHO. Still watching for further posts, watch yourself.....

 

[moparedtn]

Ed, I use the Centerforce Dual Friction clutch set and love the easy pedal pressure. I've also had good luck with Hayes and McLeod over the years. Thousands of NAPA and other parts stores clutches are bought and installed every day with good results. High performance clutches are expensive due to their intended usage. Running treaded street tires and a pretty stock motor, the need for a $400.-$500. clutch set is questionable. Race parts are for racing. What is the actual use of your car honestly going to be?

Hey Dave, thanks for jumping in here.
Funny thing about the parts stores (NAPA, Advance, Autozone, etc.) - they all just basically show the Hays flywheel and some performance clutches.
Ok, you and CP have me convinced, Centerforce Dual Friction it is, just got to figure out which one.
Am I to understand correctly that I can run any of the 6 bolt flywheels for internally balanced 440's, regardless of ring tooth count? Are they all the same overall diameter?
Further, which Centerforce do I get, the 10.5" or the 11"? Does it matter as long as it's for 23 spline?

 

[moparedtn]

The starters don't care what ring gear you have.

Thank you for that. It seemed that way, just didn't make sense to me that one starter gear could work with all these different ring tooth counts.
Why are there different ring tooth counts, anyways?

 

[Fran Blacker]

The starters don't care what ring gear you have.

11" flywheel I would think more teeth.

I was wondering if you run a 10.5 flywheel and clutch assembly you might get a little header clearance? If moparedtn has a 11" flywheel he should stay with it $$$. If he needs a flywheel maybe he should go 10.5"? Hope somebody else add to this.
Edit: Ed said bell housing 11"so forget 10.5". I have a 10.5" center force with a Lakewood blow shield, can run either 10.5" or 11".

 

[moparedtn]

I sent an very detailed email (including pics) to Brewer's this morning. It will be interesting to see what they recommend on the clutch and flywheel.

 

[NJRR]

I'll jump in on the clutch. I converted my 70 RR 383 from auto to a 4 speed. I used a McLeod diaphragm clutch. I chose the diaphragm over the standard B&B mainly because of pedal pressure needed and figuring as I get older, I will appreciate it. It grabs great and has a very smooth clutch pedal. Just remember, that with a diaphragm clutch, you don't use the over-center spring on the clutch pedal and those are pretty tricky to remove without it shooting into your face. There are a few threads here that discuss safe ways to remove it. The McLeod was cheaper than the Centerforce too if I recall.

Another good source for 4 speed parts/trannies is Jamie Passon at Passon Performance.
He's a really nice guy and knows his stuff. He also has good used parts in addition to new. I bought an old A833 that I was initially going to rebuild but decided to trade it in to Jamie as a core and buy a date correct rebuilt one from him, shifts great, no problems. Give him a call, can't hurt to get another opinion.

 

[NJRR]

Also, see this flywheel for sale?

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/143-fly-wheel.126029/

 

[Cornpatch MO]

I'll jump in on the clutch. I converted my 70 RR 383 from auto to a 4 speed. I used a McLeod diaphragm clutch. I chose the diaphragm over the standard B&B mainly because of pedal pressure needed and figuring as I get older, I will appreciate it. It grabs great and has a very smooth clutch pedal. Just remember, that with a diaphragm clutch, you don't use the over-center spring on the clutch pedal and those are pretty tricky to remove without it shooting into your face. There are a few threads here that discuss safe ways to remove it. The McLeod was cheaper than the Centerforce too if I recall.

Another good source for 4 speed parts/trannies is Jamie Passon at Passon Performance.
He's a really nice guy and knows his stuff. He also has good used parts in addition to new. I bought an old A833 that I was initially going to rebuild but decided to trade it in to Jamie as a core and buy a date correct rebuilt one from him, shifts great, no problems. Give him a call, can't hurt to get another opinion.

I would think the McLoed diaphram would be an excellent choice. I expect to drag race mine occasionaly, and the main reason I used Centerforce is that they are supposed to use centrifugal force to increase holding capacity..................MO

 

[moparedtn]

I'll jump in on the clutch. I converted my 70 RR 383 from auto to a 4 speed. I used a McLeod diaphragm clutch. I chose the diaphragm over the standard B&B mainly because of pedal pressure needed and figuring as I get older, I will appreciate it. It grabs great and has a very smooth clutch pedal. Just remember, that with a diaphragm clutch, you don't use the over-center spring on the clutch pedal and those are pretty tricky to remove without it shooting into your face. There are a few threads here that discuss safe ways to remove it. The McLeod was cheaper than the Centerforce too if I recall.

Another good source for 4 speed parts/trannies is Jamie Passon at Passon Performance.
He's a really nice guy and knows his stuff. He also has good used parts in addition to new. I bought an old A833 that I was initially going to rebuild but decided to trade it in to Jamie as a core and buy a date correct rebuilt one from him, shifts great, no problems. Give him a call, can't hurt to get another opinion.

Yessir, Passon has a great name and actually casts all sorts of new parts for the housings and such. Excellent suggestion.
Yep, I've noticed McLeod is right there with Centerforce on the diaphragm stuff.
Another good name, right there.
Thanks!

 

[moparedtn]

Also, see this flywheel for sale?

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/143-fly-wheel.126029/

Yeah, I saw that. Saw some other member trying to get the guys' attention right away too.
Seller claims it to be unused....
I gotta call BS on that, though. You can see it has at least been mounted at some point, not to mention I'm not a big fan of that "hollow" type flywheel.
Thanks, though.