How much HP/Torque to target for my build?

[GearAddict]

I'm looking to buy a motor. I have decided to either have a builder do it or go the crate route. I considered doing it myself, but I have only done low HP, stock rebuilds (and not the best work or problem free) and I really am shy on time to work on the project these days and would rather put my time into other areas of the car where I have more experience or am not going to junk thousands of dollars if I screw up.

I'd love input on a couple of things from you guys that have gone through this before...

1. What is the break point on HP/torque in a B-body that really is getting into the real of unsafe/unstreetable?
2. What kind of HP/Torque will my set-up theoretically handle?
3. Similar question around durability... will my RR hold up to 600/600 HP/tq? If not, what do you think may need to be upgraded to handle it?
4. What will my A-833 handle?

Car specs that might help...
4-speed (don't know what clutch is in it)
Dana 60 3.55 - Mancini adjustable Pinion Snubber
Sub-frame connectors
HD Springs
non-tubbed
Rear tires = 265 60 15's (looking at adding MT's)
Manual disc brakes up front (car stops pretty damn good after that upgrade)


It is a weekend car that will see maybe 2 track passes a year, drive to car shows and terrorize local streets.

I had a 69 chevelle with around 425hp and 450tq w/automatic... that was streetable, fun, but I as always thinking that 500hp/tq range would have been funner So 600 must be reeeaaally fun? or just plain scarry on the street?

The kid in me says 600/600 and I'm done, really couldn't ever want more (at least not in a street driven car).. the adult in me says that I may end up regretting it.... comments please

 

[lewtot184]

just my opinion here. i don't get into any of the 600hp hype or engine dyno stuff. i think a lot of it isn't real world and even if it was once the engine is tied to a drive train and suspension the engine dyno numbers don't mean much. look at the big strokers that can't make 400hp at the rear wheels! an honest (i said honest not magazine internet stuff) 475hp/500lbft of torque with a manual transmission can be a lot of fun. besides, a true 600hp in a stock block will blow to pieces without serious upgrades.

 

[440beep]

Another thing to consider if going the stroker route, stroker's RPM very quickly and with that 833 I hope you can shift fast. I still manage to scare myself every now and then with my stroker and how fast it RPMs, and it's connected to a Cope Racing 727.

 

[IQ52]

It just depends upon what you want. 500/500 flywheel horsepower/torque is pretty wild on the street but it really depends upon the driver. Here is a rear wheel horsepower chart from a '71 Road Runner with a McLeod twin disc street clutch, 8-3/4 rear, super stock springs, a pinion snubber and a manual disc brake conversion like yours. It was a 451 stroker, 9.7:1 compression, ported 906 heads and a hot street solid roller. Drove around nice on the interstate and in town but could get sideways real easy even with DOT slicks.

I don't even remember what the hand written horsepower and torque numbers are for in the lower right hand of the chart, but they don't pertain to this engine.

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

700 on pump gas is no problem.You need to determine what the budget is and how fast you want to go at the track.If you plan this right,,,you might be able to do it right the first time. My advise,don't cheap out! Find an engine builder like IQ that has proven results and can provide you with a quality product. DO NOT buy an Indy built anything.They do have great parts,but not assembly skills!

 

[GearAddict]

700 on pump gas is no problem.You need to determine what the budget is and how fast you want to go at the track.If you plan this right,,,you might be able to do it right the first time. My advise,don't cheap out! Find an engine builder like IQ that has proven results and can provide you with a quality product. DO NOT buy an Indy built anything.They do have great parts,but not assembly skills!

Thanks Hemi.. I know at least 2 important variables, I have a budget set and I want to have a motor built from a good builder.. I haven't reached out to IQ yet (PM is coming IQ) but I have spoken to a couple builders and prefer that over crate as I really haven't seen any good reviews or heard any good stories.. seems like if you want it done right, find a good builder you can trust and go from there.

Now I'm just trying to narrow down what route to go.. I don't want to call builder and ask for 900 HP, when I have no intention of running it on the track more than 1-2 passes a year.. 600hp/600tq is within my budget, but am I going to have to dump a hefty sum into getting the tranny to not shatter clutches or twist a driveshaft? will the body/frame handle it with subframe connecters or am I gonna twist it without?

answering some of these questions (and the ones above) for myself with help from others will help me to understand better what to call and ask a builder for...

I guess if I had to make it simple, Id say, I want a pump gas car with as much power as I can get, that's a shitload of fun to drive on the street, scares me occasionally (without endangering my life) in that "Oh ****, that's some power" kinda way, fits within my budget, doesn't require me to add more than $1,500 in suspension, trans a\ect.. parts to make it all work, looks bad ***, runs respectable at the track or the occasional street race, doesn't overheat, won't breakdown and sends children, small animals and rice burners running in fear.

IQ... If I give you a budget, can you make that happen for me?

 

[GearAddict]

View attachment 330708 It just depends upon what you want. 500/500 flywheel horsepower/torque is pretty wild on the street but it really depends upon the driver. Here is a rear wheel horsepower chart from a '71 Road Runner with a McLeod twin disc street clutch, 8-3/4 rear, super stock springs, a pinion snubber and a manual disc brake conversion like yours. It was a 451 stroker, 9.7:1 compression, ported 906 heads and a hot street solid roller. Drove around nice on the interstate and in town but could get sideways real easy even with DOT slicks.

I don't even remember what the hand written horsepower and torque numbers are for in the lower right hand of the chart, but they don't pertain to this engine.

Wow, that's a lot of RWHP... I take it your point is not the combination/power but the driver in that scenario?

 

[GearAddict]

Another thing to consider if going the stroker route, stroker's RPM very quickly and with that 833 I hope you can shift fast. I still manage to scare myself every now and then with my stroker and how fast it RPMs, and it's connected to a Cope Racing 727.

Interesting point.. I drove my RR with 4.56 gears for a while.. now down to 3.54.. I was shifting non-stop with the 4.56, didn't bother me much.

 

[uwss]

I am running around 750 hp on a 440 I bored out to 520; eagle stroker kit, hot cam, sold roller, harland sharp solid roller lifters. 4 speed rebuilt by me, it is easy. 4:10 rear end. I have the same tires on the rear as you do. Doesn't take much to go squirrely in first and 2nd. Does get the adrenaline going. Nothing like smoking the tires at the red light. Damn fun to drive.

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

Your asking alot of a stock 23 spline trans! Chances are you won't be able to power shift it.There are many here to better advise you on that.I ran a stick back in the 70's and put a clutch in every 6 monthes.Switched to A/T ever since.
Good luck with your choices

 

[Dennis H]

500 at the crank feels just right to me. Subframe connectors first.

 

[ibsorgn]

Try reading my post 526ci motor trials, tribulations and results
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ation-results-and-video.75804/#post-910406501

May help you make your decisions

 

[GearAddict]

I am running around 750 hp on a 440 I bored out to 520; eagle stroker kit, hot cam, sold roller, harland sharp solid roller lifters. 4 speed rebuilt by me, it is easy. 4:10 rear end. I have the same tires on the rear as you do. Doesn't take much to go squirrely in first and 2nd. Does get the adrenaline going. Nothing like smoking the tires at the red light. Damn fun to drive.

Damn fun to drive is what I'm looking for... Anything special on the 4 speed set-up to handle all that power?

 

[GearAddict]

Try reading my post 526ci motor trials, tribulations and results
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/mopar...ation-results-and-video.75804/#post-910406501

May help you make your decisions

Good read... How does she handle on the street?

 

[GearAddict]

Your asking alot of a stock 23 spline trans! Chances are you won't be able to power shift it.There are many here to better advise you on that.I ran a stick back in the 70's and put a clutch in every 6 monthes.Switched to A/T ever since.
Good luck with your choices

Thanks Hemi... When I started looking at builds in the 500hp/550tq range I started thinking converting to automatic, but it seems sacrileges to convert an original 4 speed stick car to automatic for some reason.. maybe it's all those years of buying 60's chevies when it seemed like a 4 speed was hard to come by and I always wanted one.. I had a trans am with a stick, but it's not the same as pushing a mid sized car around with a stick. (mid-sized really makes me laugh saying that considering my B-body barely fits in my garage)

 

[HEMI-ITIS]

Thanks Hemi... When I started looking at builds in the 500hp/550tq range I started thinking converting to automatic, but it seems sacrileges to convert an original 4 speed stick car to automatic for some reason.. maybe it's all those years of buying 60's chevies when it seemed like a 4 speed was hard to come by and I always wanted one.. I had a trans am with a stick, but it's not the same as pushing a mid sized car around with a stick. (mid-sized really makes me laugh saying that considering my B-body barely fits in my garage)

I think a good 4 or 5 speed trans,clutch,shifter and flywheel costs more then a modified a/t with good parts. FWIW,,,,,I have a clutch pedal in my car.Should take it out to loose a few lbs,,,,,LOL

 

[Dennis H]

TKO 5 handles 500 no problem. My pal has a bitchin 'Cuda with a Hughes-Built 700 + HP monster. PIA to find race fuel on the road.

 

[451Mopar]

Traction will be an issue, and if you get it to hook-up you might be quicker than 11.50 ET which is the point a Roll-Bar is required at the track.
I'm not sure about the 833 strength, I changed mine out for the LGT-700 5-speed, back when Keisler was selling them. Have Dana 60 with 3.54:1 gears. This is in my '69 Coronet Convertible with a 505" 440 stroker (0.030" over, 4.25" crank.) I don't have subframe connectors yet, but I haven't put sticky tires on it either, so it is difficult to hook up the one or two times a year I take it to the track. This is a pretty mild engine, maybe low to mid 500 HP? Never dynoed.
It is 10.3:1 compression with mild ported 440 source stealth heads (with I had the Trick Flow heads) Cam is a Comp Hydraulic roller XR286HR-10 (236/242duration at 0.050") Has very good torque. Originally had a Performer RPM intake and Holley 770 cfm carb, but this induction with air filter was too tall for stock hood. Now has Edelbrock XT EFI (sits lower than the RPM/Holley/3" air filter setup.)
This was my first hydraulic roller cam engine, and it revs pretty fast, have RPM limiter set at 6,000 RPM.
I'm afraid of floating the valves with the lower pressure valve springs. I think if I did this over, I would run a slightly larger solid roller cam and stiffer valve springs and let the engine rev higher. That might get it around the 600 HP mark?

 

[GearAddict]

I think a good 4 or 5 speed trans,clutch,shifter and flywheel costs more then a modified a/t with good parts. FWIW,,,,,I have a clutch pedal in my car.Should take it out to loose a few lbs,,,,,LOL

Yeah.. I spent a little time researching and anything that requires a new manual trans (other than a fresh rebuilt 833) is going to blow my budget for a while, so TKO conversion or new 18 spline is out of the question. Better clutch is ok... Conversion to auto is ok on budget, but I'm considering it as my last option as I just can't give up on the 4 speed yet.

 

[rrTor-Red]

Hit 585/610 tq with mine