I give up. I'm done.

[john.thompson068]

I give up. I'm done. Or at least after this.

After spending $100's of dollars on two electric fans, 100 amp alternator, and a new 7 blade flex fan my car still runs hot. Driving on a cool Florida night like tonight it is still going up into the low 200's. I don't care about that. But the starter won't crank the car when it gets that hot. I just replaced the starter with a full size starter and installed a heat shield on the starter. After pulling into the garage the starter can barely start the car and on the last attempt it would not start the car. I even hooked up a second battery to see if more current would help. Nothing. All I heard was this low whine sound come from the starter as it did not budge. The electric fans I installed sit away from the radiator a little bit and the air they blow mostly just bounces off the radiator. So they are not going to help very much. It is like their is a problem with the way I installed the battery in the trunk or something. Even though I used a MAD electrical kit and did everything like he said. I cannot think of a single thing I can do to fix this situation. I installed a high flow thermostat, high flow water pump, have a 25x20" aluminum radiator, complete fan shroud, 17" seven blade flex fan, two 1100 cfm pusher fans bouncing air off the front of the rad, there are springs in the hoses, I just flushed the system and refilled with new coolant. Timing is set at only 14*. Why does my car continue to run hot and not start? I am very close to taking the car to the next big car show this summer and making sure I do not come back with it. What is the point of having a car if it will not start? There is no point. The only thing I can think of is to install a giant electric puller fan in the front the has the highest possible cfm. And while I am blowing all of that money, I should cut away a little at those flat pieces off the bottom of the inner fender and fit a slightly bigger radiator in the car. I could probably go from a 25" to a 30". However, none of those extra inches would be in the 20" wide opening I have in my radiator support. Then buy the biggest electric fan setup I can get for that. That would be my last effort. And then it would probably run a few degrees cooler, but still not start after driving for an extended period of time like tonight. I was out for an hour and a half tonight and it is cool and breezy. I am not kidding you guys. I am about to dump this car for a huge loss. The only positive thing is that by selling the car now I will end up with over $25,000 more money in the bank five years from now because I won't be spending any more money on this car which has been nothing but problems for me for the last 13 years. I am sick of this. :thermal_oz: Thanks for all of your help.

 

[99ss]

What rad did you buy. Its the internals of a rad that makes the difference.. Ron Davis is the best on the market. My 457 runs a constant 180 -190 when I'm thrashing the living crap out of it and my car makes about 750 at the crank....

If all you have is a cooling issue, I think it can be easily solved.
I run an electric wp in my 457 as well and still dont ever touch 200

 

[BIGSHCLUNK]

Dumb question... did it run hot when you bought it or after some other mods??

 

[Revhendo]

Without meaning any disrespect. It kinda sounds like you have thrown a bunch of fixes on a problem without knowing what the problem is. Kinda like throwing band aids on a sucking chest wound. Go back to the basics.

 

[john.thompson068]

Well Rev point me back to the basics. I pretty much thought I had all the basics already. Here is my final move.


Zirgo ZFU16S - Zirgo Ultra High Performance Electric Fans

large image

• $213.75

Maximum Fan CFM
3,630 cfmFan Quantity
SingleFan Diameter (in)
16.000 in.Height (in)
15.750 in.Width (in)
16.750 in.Thickness (in)
3.500 in.Number of Blades
8 bladesBlade Material
PlasticBlade Color
BlackShroud Color
BlackShroud Material
PlasticAmp Draw
10.00 ampsAir Conditioning Relay Included
NoMounting Brackets Included
YesMounting Hardware Included
NoQuantity
Sold individually.





I will order this, and then strap it directly to the radiator. I am not building any brackets. I will order the nylon straps and stick this fan directly onto the radiator so that all 3600 cfm must come through the radiator. I will ditch the whole fan shroud I have or the idea of making a fan shroud. I think this might work. The guy at Flex a lite said even the best mechanical fan would only pull less than a thousand cfm at idle. So this fan will triple my cfm at idle. I think this is worth a shot, since the car only runs hot when driving slowly. The rest of the time it runs right at 180 degrees because I installed a 180 degree thermostat. Also, this fan is reasonably priced and only draws 10A. Zirgo sales a fan that has 3000 cfm for only 120. At this point I would spend another hundred for the extra 600 cfm. So the 220 plus another 60 for the thermostat. Looking at like 300 with shipping. If this doesn't work, I swear I am done.

 

[john.thompson068]

What rad did you buy. Its the internals of a rad that makes the difference.. Ron Davis is the best on the market. My 457 runs a constant 180 -190 when I'm thrashing the living crap out of it and my car makes about 750 at the crank....

If all you have is a cooling issue, I think it can be easily solved.
I run an electric wp in my 457 as well and still dont ever touch 200

I don't know what the heck radiator it is. All I know is it is big, aluminum, and light. I bought it a long time ago. The radiator is not the problem. The car was running at 160 degrees when cruising when I had a 160 thermostat in the car. It is only when air flow through the radiator stops that the car begins to run hot and kills the starter. Since that guy at Flex a lite said a mechanical fan will only pull less than a 1000 cfm at idle, I would hope to see a big difference with a nearly 4000 cfm electric fan hooked directly to the radiator with no gap.

 

[bigmanjbmopar]

Did you try the starter with out the wrap? that may be holding in heat? I put a little DEI titanium header rap on the headers on just that side down around were the starter is because it's close.

How many cores is your radiator? I have a 3 row 26" 14" electric pusher up front set to come on at around 200+ and a flex fan and it works fine 180°-190° and gets up to 210-220 when it is hot outside and in stop and go traffic. But cools off to 180 while driving.

Th only time I have ever had starter issues was when the battery died. Or was too low to run the starter (stock starter).

Are you 100% sure you have good battery and charging system?

 

[john.thompson068]

Dumb question... did it run hot when you bought it or after some other mods??

It has run hot ever since the 540 hp 440 mod.

 

[john.thompson068]

Did you try the starter with out the wrap? that may be holding in heat? I put a little DEI titanium header rap on the headers on just that side down around were the starter is because it's close.

How many cores is your radiator? I have a 3 row 26" 14" electric pusher up front set to come on at around 200+ and a flex fan and it works fine 180°-190° and gets up to 210-220 when it is hot outside and in stop and go traffic. But cools off to 180 while driving.

Th only time I have ever had starter issues was when the battery died. Or was too low to run the starter (stock starter).

Are you 100% sure you have good battery and charging system?

I don't even know how you can tell how many cores it has. It is a huge radiator. It is like 2.5" to 3" thick. It will run at 160 degrees going down the road with a 160 thermostat so I seriously doubt there is a problem with the radiator. I have a 180 thermostat in it now. The battery is brand new. I have a 100 A alternator. I have a huge charging wire, bypassed the ammeter, bypassed the wiring block on the firewall by running the 8 guage wire straight through a drilled out connector, soldered everything, run a distribution block, fuseable links, humongous ridiculously big battery cables and ground straps...I did everything Mark at MAD said I needed to do in order to improve my cars wiring. I'm calling Mark on Monday to see what he has to say. It fires right up when the starter is not hot. The battery is brand new from last Summer. I have not taken the heat wrap off of the starter. I am not messing with that. I had a nightmare of a time putting it on, and I am not taking it off only to discover that the starter is still too hot from from soaking in 200 degree temperature. I would like to believe it has something to do with the starter or the way I have wired the car, but it fires up immediately if the car has not been really hot for a while. It only happens when the car is hot as hell. Therefore, the only logical conclusion at this point is that I need to keep the car from getting so hot all the time. If it is running at 205 degrees while slowly cruising around an industrial park or my apartment complex at night then that tells me I need more air flow. As soon as I hit the road at 40-45 mph it cools right back down to 180 degrees. I need this car to not go over 190 degrees and my problem will be solved.

 

[5.7 hemi]

Is there a gap at the lower core support? I had about a 1 1/2 and damn thing would hit 210 on the freeway, fans cycle on/off and in town they never shut off. I put some high temp foam rubber to close the gap and bingo, runs a 203-206 all day, fans come on when in town stop and go, and dont come on driving on the freeway. Just a suggestion to check.

 

[Revhendo]

Okay, I get what you mean, but I've seen cars fail because of over the top add ons. I've seen cars overheat with high flow water pumps and run fine once a stock pump was installed. (Not saying it's your problem, it's just one scenario I've seen all too often). I've kind of been following this for awhile. Or, I should say I picked up on this with the thermostatic clutch fan questions. Before all of the fans and alternator upgrades, did you try a fixed blade fan? Although I could question the radiator, I'm with you on the airflow equation. On my 440, I run a thermostatic, viscous fan clutch, a stock Plymouth 7 blade fan, a Mopar Performance water pump, a cheap Champion aluminum radiator and no fan shroud. It NEVER goes above 195. I've run this fan/water pump combo on all of my big blocks with the same results.

So, I say again, go back to the basics. Super wazoo this, uber flow this, killer ratio that, they all look good on paper, but are they what you need? It doesn't matter if you have a 90 horse slant six or a 1000 hp Hemi, the basics still apply.

Oh, and I'm sure the electric fan guy is gonna tell you how great his fan is compared to a stock fan. He doesn't sell stock fans.

 

[john.thompson068]

Okay, I get what you mean, but I've seen cars fail because of over the top add ons. I've seen cars overheat with high flow water pumps and run fine once a stock pump was installed. (Not saying it's your problem, it's just one scenario I've seen all too often). I've kind of been following this for awhile. Or, I should say I picked up on this with the thermostatic clutch fan questions. Before all of the fans and alternator upgrades, did you try a fixed blade fan? Although I could question the radiator, I'm with you on the airflow equation. On my 440, I run a thermostatic, viscous fan clutch, a stock Plymouth 7 blade fan, a Mopar Performance water pump, a cheap Champion aluminum radiator and no fan shroud. It NEVER goes above 195. I've run this fan/water pump combo on all of my big blocks with the same results.

So, I say again, go back to the basics. Super wazoo this, uber flow this, killer ratio that, they all look good on paper, but are they what you need? It doesn't matter if you have a 90 horse slant six or a 1000 hp Hemi, the basics still apply.

Oh, and I'm sure the electric fan guy is gonna tell you how great his fan is compared to a stock fan. He doesn't sell stock fans.

No man, we never talked about electric fans at all except that I mentioned I had bought two ten inch electric fans to act like pushers and that I wanted to upgrade my mechanical fan. The guy never said a single word concerning electric fans, and all we talked about was the fan I was replacing and the fan I wanted to order. I asked him about the CFM of mechanical fans because I wanted to be able to compare a mechanical fans performance to an electric fan. I was hoping he would say that an mechanical fan pulls like 3 or 4 thousand cfm at idle. But in actuality, an electric fan out performs a mechanical fan in every way. If my mechanical fan is only pulling less than a 1000 cfm at idle then that sucks pretty bad considering my car runs hot at idle and I could be getting three times that cfm from an electric fan. It seems kinda of obvious what I need to try.

Second, I called Milodon to find out if I should run a high flow or standard pump. The guy at Milodon said a high flow water pump increases coolant flow 30% at all rpms and lowers coolant temps by 15 degrees. He told me to get a high flow pump and thermostat. So that is what I did.

 

[john.thompson068]

Is there a gap at the lower core support? I had about a 1 1/2 and damn thing would hit 210 on the freeway, fans cycle on/off and in town they never shut off. I put some high temp foam rubber to close the gap and bingo, runs a 203-206 all day, fans come on when in town stop and go, and dont come on driving on the freeway. Just a suggestion to check.

There is just a big enough gap for my cooler lines to fit under there. It runs right at the temperature of the thermostat when cruising at 40 mph so I don't think that is going to be a problem.

 

[ChgrSteve67]

I fought overheating problems running a 26 inch radiator with electric fans. Both dual and single 2500 cfm fans.

I reciently installed a 26 inch BeCool radiator with a full shroud and dual 3500 cfm fans running a 160 degree thermostat. Problem solved.

I also had problems starting my car when it got hot.
A new group 27 950 CCA bettery solved that problem.
I have run both a mini starter and a stock starter and not had any issues cranking the car over hot or cold.

Don't know if your running stock manifolds or headers but if you running headers you might want to wrap them to help keep the heat away from the starter.

-Steve

 

[Revhendo]

No man, we never talked about electric fans at all except that I mentioned I had bought two ten inch electric fans to act like pushers and that I wanted to upgrade my mechanical fan. The guy never said a single word concerning electric fans, and all we talked about was the fan I was replacing and the fan I wanted to order. I asked him about the CFM of mechanical fans because I wanted to be able to compare a mechanical fans performance to an electric fan. I was hoping he would say that an mechanical fan pulls like 3 or 4 thousand cfm at idle. But in actuality, an electric fan out performs a mechanical fan in every way. If my mechanical fan is only pulling less than a 1000 cfm at idle then that sucks pretty bad considering my car runs hot at idle and I could be getting three times that cfm from an electric fan. It seems kinda of obvious what I need to try.

Second, I called Milodon to find out if I should run a high flow or standard pump. The guy at Milodon said a high flow water pump increases coolant flow 30% at all rpms and lowers coolant temps by 15 degrees. He told me to get a high flow pump and thermostat. So that is what I did.

Did the high flow pump help at all?
Did the electric fans help at all?

 

[Propwash]

Don't know what else you looked at, but poor timing, a lean carb or a bad head gasket will all cause a car to run hot even if you throw a radiator and fans out of a mack truck in it. Just throwing it out there.

 

[Revhendo]

Don't know what else you looked at, but poor timing, a lean carb or a bad head gasket will all cause a car to run hot even if you throw a radiator and fans out of a mack truck in it. Just throwing it out there.

Indeed X2. Not just initial timing, but the timing curve. Is it jumping in too early? How lean is it running at idle? Vacuum leaks? All good questions.

 

[crazy440car]

Just a thought, I know that you are looking at the cooling system for the issue but often times in an enginge build, there are other things that could cause over heating issues such as too thin of cylinder walls and blocked water passages. Another component you might look at is the heater core. A blockage in the heater core will not allow the water/coolant flow properly thus creating a over heating problem.

 

[65 Plymouth Satellite 426]

Just Suggestions...I Had Problems Starting My Old Charger When It Got Hot. Coil Went Bad! What About Head Gaskets? Or The Thermostat? Sentiment In The Radiator Or Block?

 

[moparker]

You have a 160 or a 180 degree thermostat in it now? If you have 180 go back to 160. I had issues as well in my Duster. Everyone said to run 180. The 160 worked better for me.