I need to hear from anyone running an Edelbrock 650 on their 440, please!

[moparedtn]

Actualy, a 600 AFB came stock on early 440's. My old friends 67 Imperial w/a 440 had a 600 AFB on top. The early versions of that carb had no secondary air door, FWIW.

But I do agree a 750 would be better on top of this mill.

To the OP, would the carb clear with the thick Edelbrock carb gasket at approx. .333 thick? That spacer you have now is requiring you to have more pump shot to be needed. And not helping much for fuel distribution into the intake. The fuel is just crashing and probably pooling a little bit on top of it.

You'd think a carb designed directly after the original Carter AVS would clear a factory intake, wouldn't you?
Turns out, not so much. The choke well in the stock intake is the culprit, as much so horizontally as vertically. One could grind off some of that well wall, I suppose, but I chose not to since I had a Holley 750 vacsec on it before and the same issue reared its' ugly head.
Speaking of the venerable Holley 3310 750cfm, I had numerous times in the past slapped one of those on stock or near-stock 440s right out of the box and they were golden. Adjust idle mixture and go, pretty much.
Not this time, even after multiple jet and power valve changes (see previous postings). Stumped me on that one. Sold the carb to a fellow member here, still as new in the factory box...

I do make the effort with the carb spacer to get a good quality one and a true "4 hole" one that matches the 4 runners in the intake exactly, as opposed to the "one big hole" spacers out there. I know that much matters, for exactly the reasons you state.
Again, nothing new for me. Did the same all these years with the aforementioned Holley, never had an issue.

 

[YY1]

Probably not much help, but I had a 600 AFB style (out of the box) on my 69 440 with mild cam and throttle response was just fine. The only issue I couldn't solve was a lean surge at cruise RPM.

I installed an AFB style 750 and the lean surge was corrected, but it's now a bit rich at idle and part throttle.

If you're having the same issue with two different carbs despite numerous attempts at tuning, you may be right to suspect some other source.

Can you try one of those carbs on another engine?

BTW 16* initial advance is not at all too much for a BBM. I've had them that liked a considerable amount more than that.

I do have an AVS style 650 sitting on the shelf. It was bought for a 400, but I may try it on the 440.

 

[moparedtn]

Probably not much help, but I had a 600 AFB style (out of the box) on my 69 440 with mild cam and throttle response was just fine. The only issue I couldn't solve was a lean surge at cruise RPM.

I installed an AFB style 750 and the lean surge was corrected, but it's now a bit rich at idle and part throttle.

If you're having the same issue with two different carbs despite numerous attempts at tuning, you may be right to suspect some other source.

Can you try one of those carbs on another engine?

BTW 16* initial advance is not at all too much for a BBM. I've had them that liked a considerable amount more than that.

I do have an AVS style 650 sitting on the shelf. It was bought for a 400, but I may try it on the 440.

Yeah, two different brand new carbs, tuned every which way.
Two different ignition control modules including a "stock" new one on there now and the original orange box that came with the conversion kit, same difference.
Two different distributors, both new, one with the conversion kit and another one in there now which is a rebuilt "stock" unit, timing set all sorts of different ways. No difference.
Carter "hemi" fuel pump, new tank, pickup and 3/8" line all the way up.

I'm thinking something is either a)happening with the spark/timing at over 4k RPMs or b)valve springs weak and valves floating up there.
Carb has all the "rich" jets and springs exactly like the 750cfm Eddy AVS. She's quite pungent at idle.
No choke, but starts easily. Rumbles and stumbles and doesn't like throttle until it has some heat in it, to the point of popping occasionally even at idle. It will also pop/backfire through the carb when I open the secondaries up when cold, less so when hot.
Once warm, idles easily although engine is shaky. Revs happily to 4k RPMs.
Go for the gusto and get into it from there and things get violent, with shaking and occasional backfire through exhaust.
It will climb over 5k RPM but it's not happy about it.

 

[moparedtn]

BTW, a new voltage regulator and another fresh set of spark plugs are on the way. I'll toss those on for grins just to see what happens.
Think it best for me to start a new thread with a different title, posting a video of it actually acting up? Might get more responses?

 

[terzmo]

Actualy, a 600 AFB came stock on early 440's. My old friends 67 Imperial w/a 440 had a 600 AFB on top. The early versions of that carb had no secondary air door, FWIW.

But I do agree a 750 would be better on top of this mill.

To the OP, would the carb clear with the thick Edelbrock carb gasket at approx. .333 thick? That spacer you have now is requiring you to have more pump shot to be needed. And not helping much for fuel distribution into the intake. The fuel is just crashing and probably pooling a little bit on top of it.

that's a 350hp 440...real 440's ran/run 375 stock

 

[SlinktRR]

ok timing or valve train or bad valve seats should be your primary focus. Backfiring can only be those things. I wouldn't worry about the carb until later. Go through the heads, leak down test, all that. Verify tdc with a piston stop.

 

[moparedtn]

ok timing or valve train or bad valve seats should be your primary focus. Backfiring can only be those things. I wouldn't worry about the carb until later. Go through the heads, leak down test, all that. Verify tdc with a piston stop.

Yep, I've verified TDC already. Found out the harmonic balancer that came with this mystery motor was WAY off on its' timing marks, probably had done some slipping.
I bought a new balancer from Summit (nice unit BTW) and it's on there now. Its' indicated 0 is a ton closer to correct.

You know what's been weird about this motor? No matter where I set the timing (or which distributor I use), I have never heard it knock/pre-ignite.
That's a new one on me; every 440 I've ever had would tell you when to stop advancing timing by giving you some knocking.
This one - no knocking, ever. Very odd.

Vacuum is very strong, however. 16hg at idle/ climbs to over 20 when I run it up over 2k RPM. Fairly steady needle, too. Makes me think I'm not getting a lot of loss past valve seats.

 

[YY1]

Mine doesn't ping/knock either, and it's a 10.1:1 '69 motor with a cam running on pump gas 89/93 mix.

Runs SUPER cool as well. Barely gets over 160-170*.

That slipped balancer certainly is accounting for the timing discrepancy we all thought was odd.

I'd also find it odd to float the valves as early as 4K RPM, unless those are stock springs with a big cam.

Since you're not running vacuum advance (still?), have you tried attaching a manual vacuum pump to the distributor pot and manually giving it some advance around 4K with throttle application?

 

[moparedtn]

Mine doesn't ping/knock either, and it's a 10.1:1 '69 motor with a cam running on pump gas 89/93 mix.

Runs SUPER cool as well. Barely gets over 160-170*.

That slipped balancer certainly is accounting for the timing discrepancy we all thought was odd.

I'd also find it odd to float the valves as early as 4K RPM, unless those are stock springs with a big cam.

Since you're not running vacuum advance (still?), have you tried attaching a manual vacuum pump to the distributor pot and manually giving it some advance around 4K with throttle application?

Well, mine doesn't run that cool, but I did finally get her tamed down to 180-190, which is fine. I mean it never knocks at ANY timing setting. I should be able to advance timing until I get it to knock, shouldn't I?

Yep, new balancer is giving truer readings for sure, even though I'm still real nervous about running 16BTDC on initial.

No idea on this motor, as I've said. Builder passed on years ago and I don't see any indication of these springs being anywhere near "new" or different. The cam, as you may recall, is a relatively mild Comp Cam & lifter package I installed when the motor wiped the purple shaft that came in it.
Lesson learned. Using the high zinc proper oil in it now.
No idea Mobil1 would wipe the cam, of all things.

No, I haven't tried that trick with the advance. Experience with this motor so far has been it hates it being hooked up, regardless of initial timing setting (or even which distributor I have in it at the time).
I have one of those one-man brake bleeder jobbers, I suppose I could try that.

What if it winds up that all this time I've been starting too advanced with initial timing, though? What if it really wants more like 5BTDC?

 

[coloradodave]

When you set too much initial advance in it the motor will try to 'kick back' while trying to start it when hot, or crank very slow. Things are different today and using more initial is the new normal. At the same time, anytime you adjust the initial you want to check the total advance with a light. +-36* total when it's all in usually does the trick. Again, that's with the vacuum advance disconnected and the carb port plugged.

YY1: Might be a good idea to put a 180* thermostat in your motor. 160-170* isn't really hot enough to burn off condensation in the motor, if indeed your temperature gauge is accurate. JMHO

 

[moparedtn]

When you set too much initial advance in it the motor will try to 'kick back' while trying to start it when hot, or crank very slow. Things are different today and using more initial is the new normal. At the same time, anytime you adjust the initial you want to check the total advance with a light. +-36* total when it's all in usually does the trick. Again, that's with the vacuum advance disconnected and the carb port plugged.

YY1: Might be a good idea to put a 180* thermostat in your motor. 160-170* isn't really hot enough to burn off condensation in the motor, if indeed your temperature gauge is accurate. JMHO

That's the other mystifying thing about all this cranking up of initial timing I've been doing - so far, there's not been any backlash out of the starter at all, or any run-on in the motor either.
I've got a Dakota starter on the motor and all, sure, and the battery is a beast - but I gotta think if I was getting out of control with the timing, the thing would lash back at me when starting hot.
Nope. Not a lick. Other than the occasional pop back through the carb like I mentioned...
It's very "surge-y" when trying to hold a constant speed down the road, too, acts jittery.

 

[rumblefish360]

You'd think a carb designed directly after the original Carter AVS would clear a factory intake, wouldn't you?
Turns out, not so much. The choke well in the stock intake is the culprit, as much so horizontally as vertically. One could grind off some of that well wall, I suppose, but I chose not to since I had a Holley 750 vacsec on it before and the same issue reared its' ugly head.
Speaking of the venerable Holley 3310 750cfm, I had numerous times in the past slapped one of those on stock or near-stock 440s right out of the box and they were golden. Adjust idle mixture and go, pretty much.
Not this time, even after multiple jet and power valve changes (see previous postings). Stumped me on that one. Sold the carb to a fellow member here, still as new in the factory box...

I do make the effort with the carb spacer to get a good quality one and a true "4 hole" one that matches the 4 runners in the intake exactly, as opposed to the "one big hole" spacers out there. I know that much matters, for exactly the reasons you state.
Again, nothing new for me. Did the same all these years with the aforementioned Holley, never had an issue.

So the choke tower interfere with the "Edelbrock" carb.
Did you use the thick gasket @ .333 (or so) thick?
Also, I simply mentioned the older 440 as an example. Later year model 440's did come with different cams changing the demands of the carb and the tuners abilty.
Often I have found a Holley to be excellent OOTB just as well as a Carter/Edelbrock. However, sometimes, it is a horror show on another engine.

If your tuning skills are sharp, then blame the carb.

 

[rumblefish360]

that's a 350hp 440...real 440's ran/run 375 stock

Absolutely correct. I mentioned above after responding to Moparedtn's quoting of myself and post directed towards me.
I just find it disturbing you said "REAL 440's" as if any other 440 isn't good enough.
How freaking dare you degrade the engine line and every owner of a 440 that isn't the holy grail upper HP model.
You are one screw up elitist.

 

[moparedtn]

So the choke tower interfere with the "Edelbrock" carb.
Did you use the thick gasket @ .333 (or so) thick?
Also, I simply mentioned the older 440 as an example. Later year model 440's did come with different cams changing the demands of the carb and the tuners abilty.
Often I have found a Holley to be excellent OOTB just as well as a Carter/Edelbrock. However, sometimes, it is a horror show on another engine.

If your tuning skills are sharp, then blame the carb.

This is the 1/2" thick spacer I used:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-8723

It matches the bores on the Edelbrock perfectly and gives me just enough clearance without sticking WAY up like a 1" or 2" would do.

The spacer also allows me to use this fuel line:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-8126

Yeah, it's still stumping me as to why the usually good old reliable Holley 750 just didn't work out on this motor. Beginning to think this motor is haunted or something.
I still am suspect of the ballast/wiring as well. The former owner went to a lot of trouble to use the double decker ballast when the simple, single one that usually comes with the electronic ignition conversion kit would have been just fine.

The cam I've already posted on before, but it's this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-21-306-4
Comp Cams "Magnum" series. Quite mild, really. Fairly close to stock.

Good hearing from you again.
The plugs and new voltage regulator arrive today. We'll see if they make any difference.

 

[rumblefish360]

Nice street cam. That will be an enjoyable cruiser for sure.

 

[moparedtn]

I need to find a wiring diagram for that ballast....

 

[coloradodave]

I think I would start over by using a TDC finder and again, comparing it with your new balancer. Surging going down the road can be the result of several things, including a too lean condition or too retarded ignition timing.
Once the EXACT timing mark has been verified, plotting the total timing and at what RPM, would be my next move.
Another thought. Have you done a compression test on the motor to see what your cranking compression is? It might help give you an idea of the compression ratio, which, if really low, might account for the "no ping" situation.

 

[moparedtn]

I think I would start over by using a TDC finder and again, comparing it with your new balancer. Surging going down the road can be the result of several things, including a too lean condition or too retarded ignition timing.
Once the EXACT timing mark has been verified, plotting the total timing and at what RPM, would be my next move.
Another thought. Have you done a compression test on the motor to see what your cranking compression is? It might help give you an idea of the compression ratio, which, if really low, might account for the "no ping" situation.

Oy with the TDC thing again. Surely the new balancer would be close?
Well, since I'm changing plugs, I guess I could go thru all that again....sigh.

Nope, no compression test done to date. Other than for general reference, hadn't really seen the need.
I only wish all I had to worry about was a pinging situation....

 

[miller]

Haven't followed real close, though on the timing issue, what dizzy are you running? And, what's it doing on advance? If no advance, or it's set up wrong, that will really affect how the motor runs.

 

[moparedtn]

Haven't followed real close, though on the timing issue, what dizzy are you running? And, what's it doing on advance? If no advance, or it's set up wrong, that will really affect how the motor runs.

I have two at this point - both new:
a. Mopar electronic that came with the conversion kit
b. a new A-1 Cardone stock replacement
They both are most certainly advancing. I get the same results with either.
The engine does not want the vacuum advance hooked up on either one, too.