I need to hear from anyone running an Edelbrock 650 on their 440, please!

[miller]

I have two at this point - both new:
a. Mopar electronic that came with the conversion kit
b. a new A-1 Cardone stock replacement

Are you saying both of your dizzys are vacuum advance, neither works hooked up?
Just curious how your verifying advance...by timing light? Even so, rate and amount of advance, will make a difference for any particular motor.
What happens with the motor, when vacuum advance is hooked-up?

Keep in mind, I'm purely old school. Got a dual-point, mechanical advance rig on mine.

 

[moparedtn]

Are you saying both of your dizzys are vacuum advance, neither works hooked up?
Just curious how your verifying advance...by timing light? Even so, rate and amount of advance, will make a difference for any particular motor.
What happens with the motor, when vacuum advance is hooked-up?

Keep in mind, I'm purely old school. Got a dual-point, mechanical advance rig on mine.

You folks who have been following along with me on this journey, please avert your eyes. I'm going to have to be very repetitive here in order to answer Millers' questions.
Sorry...

No, I didn't say that.
As one should assume by both distributors being new - yes, they're both vacuum advance and yes, it works on both. Yes, one comes to that conclusion by using a timing light, in conjunction with the well-marked new harmonic balancer I installed.

(Reading back on my series of threads/posts on this ongoing problem will answer most all questions you have now and would save a ton of time, but I do appreciate your trying to help very much!)

What happens when said vacuum advance is hooked up is that the issues I am experiencing are magnified (if that's an accurate term to use here). It takes the throttle and climbs in RPM's with much less fuss and labor (stumbling and erratic surging sensation) when it's disconnected.
It's as if it's telling me "I got too much advance now, thanks, don't need any more",
if that makes any sense.

This engine is reportedly "stock". It's a 1975 block with all the internals and heads of the original 1968 engine stuffed into it, along with the new Comp Cams cam and lifters aforementioned. It really should behave and TUNE pretty much as a stock motor should as a result.
"Should". Hell of a word in this case.
;-)

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, What are you using for plugs and wires ? you mentioned getting a set of plugs ?
Ive been through the this and that plug and wire dance , Ive owned wire sets and plugs that a pro stock racer would have been proud of LOL but in the end the car runs best with a set of #12 champions at .035 and a plain old set of napa / beldon wires with burn boots on the plug end.
Ive had new latest and greatest wires and plugs that would run fine at lower rpm and crap out under a load ?

 

[moparedtn]

Ed, What are you using for plugs and wires ? you mentioned getting a set of plugs ?
Ive been through the this and that plug and wire dance , Ive owned wire sets and plugs that a pro stock racer would have been proud of LOL but in the end the car runs best with a set of #12 champions at .035 and a plain old set of napa / beldon wires with burn boots on the plug end.
Ive had new latest and greatest wires and plugs that would run fine at lower rpm and crap out under a load ?

MSD red "Super Conductor" 8.5 wires, new.
Autolite 85 plugs, .035 gap, might have 100 miles on them?
About to replace them with Champion RJ12YC this weekend.

 

[miller]

No, I didn't say that.
As one should assume by both distributors being new - yes, they're both vacuum advance and yes, it works on both. Yes, one comes to that conclusion by using a timing light, in conjunction with the well-marked new harmonic balancer I installed.

(Reading back on my series of threads/posts on this ongoing problem will answer most all questions you have now and would save a ton of time, but I do appreciate your trying to help very much!)

Ouch! Nothing to be worried about. Just started touching base on this, and my fault playing catch up. Of course, just trying to help. Have noticed all the ideas tossed at you, but also know many times folks blame carb tuning, when the problem is at the dizzy.
Yup, I'll glance back through some of your threads. Maybe can pick something up.

 

[miller]

What happens when said vacuum advance is hooked up is that the issues I am experiencing are magnified (if that's an accurate term to use here). It takes the throttle and climbs in RPM's with much less fuss and labor (stumbling and erratic surging sensation) when it's disconnected.
It's as if it's telling me "I got too much advance now, thanks, don't need any more",
if that makes any sense.

Just for what it's worth. Not trying to be a wise guy, or the sort...just what I see.
Sure, what your saying (in the quote) 'can' make perfect sense. ColoradoDave said something along the lines, too, that could be part of the problem.
But, it acting the same with both dizzys? I'd suspect a possible problem 'inside' the motor. Something you don't want to hear. Hell, these are just words, so take it as it is.

First thing I'd look at is cylinder compression. If it's good, cam timing (yeah, understand you've already checked it), TDC compression stroke. If any of that is off, a flat waste of time. Think I recall you've checked vacuum amount.

Just looking at what could be causing the problems. Hard to believe both dizzys would have the same deal, but thinking on the advance plates hanging, wrong advance springs, advance coming in too early, or late, at the wrong RPM. All fixable, all that could be causing those problems.

Know one fact. Ignition has to work with fuel system. 'Something' is off.
But, I'll leave it alone, now. Ha, probably sick of reading my crap.

 

[moparedtn]

Just for what it's worth. Not trying to be a wise guy, or the sort...just what I see.
Sure, what your saying (in the quote) 'can' make perfect sense. ColoradoDave said something along the lines, too, that could be part of the problem.
But, it acting the same with both dizzys? I'd suspect a possible problem 'inside' the motor. Something you don't want to hear. Hell, these are just words, so take it as it is.

First thing I'd look at is cylinder compression. If it's good, cam timing (yeah, understand you've already checked it), TDC compression stroke. If any of that is off, a flat waste of time. Think I recall you've checked vacuum amount.

Just looking at what could be causing the problems. Hard to believe both dizzys would have the same deal, but thinking on the advance plates hanging, wrong advance springs, advance coming in too early, or late, at the wrong RPM. All fixable, all that could be causing those problems.

Know one fact. Ignition has to work with fuel system. 'Something' is off.
But, I'll leave it alone, now. Ha, probably sick of reading my crap.

Thanks again for replying.
Yeah, I'm starting to think the engine itself has a problem.
I installed the cam and lifters myself with a new double roller chain; no degree wheel stuff, just aligned the timing marks straight up. Nothing fought me when I did it, it all went together like a breeze.
It doesn't matter what ECU I use, what distributor, carb, coil, balancer, etc. I use - the issue persists.
If anything else, I got a ton of new parts to do something with...
About ready to get another 440 out of some motorhome somewhere and stick it in there. The car is supposed to be FUN, not a project that never ends.

 

[miller]

I installed the cam and lifters myself with a new double roller chain; no degree wheel stuff, just aligned the timing marks straight up.

Might not be anything...mine is a 440, and it was 25 years ago, last time I mounted up a cam/timing chain on a motor.
On my current motor, 440 (not run, yet), installed new cam, lifters, and timing chain. Toss in most cams these days seem to be ground 4 degrees advanced. Is that right?
Point I'm trying to make, on your dot to dot, but no degree wheel.
I had a time checking, and re-checking mine. Knew what degrees it should come in, blah, blah. I would swear the 3 sets of timing marks on the timing chain were swapped around. Double-row roller chain Mopar Performance...made in Mexico.

In a nutshell, I timed my cam/chain, using a degree wheel, getting what I was supposed to have...triple checked. Heck with which marks I used...just the degrees.

Not sure what affect few degrees off would do in your case, but might do some explaining. Good luck with it!

 

[moparedtn]

I got the good old made in the USA Cloyes double roller set. Single bolt cam, gears only had one dot apiece on them, figured that was simple enough.
Who knows?

 

[coloradodave]

moparedtn; Where we all fail in getting to the crux of a problem is ASSUMING just because a part is new it must be good. Timing tapes and timing lights exist for a reason. There is an initial timing setting and a total timing setting, for a reason. If you want to try and fix the problem yourself, you need to do the work and the math to make sure of ALL the settings. Guessing won't get it done...

 

[moparedtn]

moparedtn; Where we all fail in getting to the crux of a problem is ASSUMING just because a part is new it must be good. Timing tapes and timing lights exist for a reason. There is an initial timing setting and a total timing setting, for a reason. If you want to try and fix the problem yourself, you need to do the work and the math to make sure of ALL the settings. Guessing won't get it done...

Excuse me Dave, but just where did you read that I haven't been doing just that (and won't be doing that again soon), as I posted just recently? Everything I have done (and plan on doing again) is well documented in these entire threads on this subject for everyone to see, including such efforts as you mention.

Speaking of assuming...physician, heal thyself.

I get to physical tasks as my health allows; being a three time cancer survivor does come with certain limitations, unfortunately. There's days I can go and days I cannot; sorry if that's not quickly enough for some.
As I've already posted, as I write this there's a nice stack of new plugs all gapped and ready to go and the TDC tool is sitting on my workbench for when I pull the old plugs out.
Compression gauge lies right next to it; new voltage regulator is there, too.

Doesn't hurt to bounce ideas and theories around with folks actually interested in helping me in the interim, though, and I do try to answer folks' questions and comments in a timely fashion. It's the least I can do for their trouble.

Now...if you wanna help or heck, just to chat a bit, that's great. Welcome!
On the other hand, if all you want to do is preach, well...

 

[69Runner]

Good Sunday morning moparedtn, i am awake and my household is quiet so I can gather my thoughts. Like others who have tried to help I thought you had it when you discovered the timing was off, and I commend you on your persistence. Let me offer up some ideas that you might or might have not considered. Forgive me if you have already covered these.

Understanding the engine was originally built by an experienced builder, who is no longer of this earth, there is the basic expectation it is close to stock, i.e. it should perform! Nevertheless something is not right. So here are some ideas, in the areas of ignition, air/fuel and mechanical.

Having just recently replaced the coil and ignition module on an HEI, in my research I read the stock GM was good up to 4500rpm. How does this apply here? Just a thought, I'm not aware of such a low limit with our (far superior!) Mopar solid state ignition but maybe it's a factor, to be exhibiting such a consistent drop-off at ~4000 rpm.

Another thought - what is the A/F ratio at that rpm? You would need an O2 sensor of course but it might be warranted. Otherwise a trip to the local dyno might help.

Final thought, I understand you installed the cam yourself, but what if the problem is valve float, as if the springs are not right?

I'm just trying to help you to eliminate some relatively easy-to-check things, but I know you have thrown a lot of money at this issue. Maybe it would help to simply list everything you have done, and the results, for anyone new to your issue?

Gotta run, but good luck!

 

[moparedtn]

Good Sunday morning moparedtn, i am awake and my household is quiet so I can gather my thoughts. Like others who have tried to help I thought you had it when you discovered the timing was off, and I commend you on your persistence. Let me offer up some ideas that you might or might have not considered. Forgive me if you have already covered these.

Understanding the engine was originally built by an experienced builder, who is no longer of this earth, there is the basic expectation it is close to stock, i.e. it should perform! Nevertheless something is not right. So here are some ideas, in the areas of ignition, air/fuel and mechanical.

Having just recently replaced the coil and ignition module on an HEI, in my research I read the stock GM was good up to 4500rpm. How does this apply here? Just a thought, I'm not aware of such a low limit with our (far superior!) Mopar solid state ignition but maybe it's a factor, to be exhibiting such a consistent drop-off at ~4000 rpm.

Another thought - what is the A/F ratio at that rpm? You would need an O2 sensor of course but it might be warranted. Otherwise a trip to the local dyno might help.

Final thought, I understand you installed the cam yourself, but what if the problem is valve float, as if the springs are not right?

I'm just trying to help you to eliminate some relatively easy-to-check things, but I know you have thrown a lot of money at this issue. Maybe it would help to simply list everything you have done, and the results, for anyone new to your issue?

Gotta run, but good luck!

Good morning!
I appreciate your assistance in this. I know you've offered advice before and I am grateful you're still checking in on me.

(General Note: I do try things one at a time to see if they help before moving on to the next one, in order to keep track)

Let's see here....
1. On the electronic ignition situation, I was thinking the same thing as you on that - the problem does seem to me to be electrical/ignition related.
-I have tried both the new-appearing Mopar orange box ECU that came with the car (and was told it is new to the car when I bought it) as well as a replacement unit, a "stock" one whose original application was for a '72 RoadRunner big block.
-The coil is a new MSD red one.
-Distributors: I have tried both the Mopar performance electronic one and a replacement A-1 Cardone "stock" unit.
Other than the cars' wiring (which appears undisturbed) and that double ballast that I posted a pic of earlier in this thread, that's it.

Question: What voltage should I be seeing at the coil @key-on versus @cranking and @running?


2. A/F ratio - you're right, I haven't got anything for testing that. I went from a new Holley 3310 (750cfm vac.sec.) to the present Carter "Thunder" AVS, using the usual tuning methods of jetting/power valves/springs, etc.
The car idles and takes throttle acceptably in lower RPM ranges. It'll run you out of the garage idling (rich), always has no matter what carb combo was on it.
Never seen any black smoke come out of it under throttle, so I guess I've never gone TOO far with the carb adjustments?

3. Valve springs - yep, I just asked about that very thing in a very recent post. Since I have no idea what springs are on it (they appear older and stock) and it's one thing I haven't approached at all in all this, I suppose they could be suspect.

I would have thought any of the many, many items I've replaced on the car (and at this point in the project, I've replaced pretty much EVERYTHING on the car, stem to stern, not just engine-related) that I would have affected this issue at some point.
To date, it has not, not even more than a little bit.

What's left of my formerly logical mind would therefore tell me that whatever the problem is, I have not yet touched. Does that make sense?

I'm going to try to work on it today, pulling the plugs all out and doing another TDC test to mark the new balancer correctly and to try and do a compression test.
More later on after that....

 

[miller]

I installed the cam and lifters myself with a new double roller chain; no degree wheel stuff, just aligned the timing marks straight up.

All you can do, is check things, looking for what might be a problem. Question...your quote says 'aligned the timing marks straight up' (on the timing chain)...marks go dot to dot...crank gear dot up, cam gear dot down. Just a shot in the dark, could be just reading things wrong.

IF it helps, doing a correct compression check, here's how...
(Best type of tester to use is the kind that 'holds' the reading on the gauge until released.)
1) Pull all the spark plugs.
2) Pull the coil wire. That's just so no loose sparks, while cranking.
3) Carb choke off, throttle held wide open.
4) For each cylinder, crank the engine, allowing 3 compression 'hits'. No more, no less.
For all eight cylinders, should fall within a 10% max range, between them. Your cam decides how much you get...could be 125 - 150...but (let's say) 145, no more than 10% apart, for example.

Good chance you already know all this.

 

[69Runner]

Question: What voltage should I be seeing at the coil @key-on versus @cranking and @running?

Keeping in mind I'm running points with a solid state VR, to your question above the three voltages on the primary side of the coil are 5.3, 4 (approximate), and 3.3 VDC. Idle is 600 rpm. At 2000 rpm the voltage is 1.8.

Note: I repeated these measurements, this time using a good ground instead of the negative side of the coil (with the condenser). Readings were 7VDC with key on, 10.5 to 11 at idle, and 12 VDC above 1000 rpm.

 

[moparedtn]

Keeping in mind I'm running points with a solid state VR, to your question above the three voltages on the primary side of the coil are 5.3, 4 (approximate), and 3.3 VDC. Idle is 600 rpm. At 2000 rpm the voltage is 1.8.

Ok, folks, got a TON of new information for you...
Pulled all the plugs and here's the results of that:

Yep, fuel fouled all to hell. I was surprised, to say the least. Only two looked "normal". Keep in mind, I just put these in last fall!

Ok, next thing to do was the compression test. Results:

Nothing earth-shattering there. I was relieved, actually. Not exactly a high-compression motor, but at least they're fairly consistent, eh?

Next item was checking voltage to the coil from the ballast:
Key ON, not running: 2.2V
Cranking: 9.4V
I then replaced that raggy old looking regulator with a new one:

Checked voltage @ coil again afterwards. As you might suspect, no change.
NOTE: RUNNING voltage wound up being 4.3V. Is this close to correct?

Next, the TDC checking:
Results were the indicated 0 on the new balancer was DEAD ON. At worst, maybe my eyes were off on calibration 1 degree.
Now my new balancer has all sorts of funny marks on it. Oh well.

Installed new Champion RJ12YC plugs, gapped at .035 and hoped for the best....
WE HAVE VIDEO:


Results:
The video shows it. What you see is what you get. I set the timing to 13BTDC and adjusted idle mix screws for best vacuum (about 15-16Hg). Idles @ 800.
Surprising part is what the charging gauge showed when I first fired it up:
that rascal went majorly into the + side and showed good, healthy charging the whole time the car was running.
It had never shown discharge previously, but this was a MARKED difference.

She still gets a little wonky over 4k RPM but takes it; same over 5k. Shakes, stammers and wobbles a bit up there but it will go there. I think maybe I might be down to fine tuning??
(Ok, I PRAY that, but you know what I mean)

So what the hell did all this tell me?
-Engine seems mechanically sound
-Fouled plugs with electronic ignition and less than 100 miles on them?
What the hell?
-Is voltage to the coil "normal" here, guys? Should running voltage be closer to 5V?
Starting voltage closer to 12V?
-Could the voltage regulator have been limiting voltage to the ignition, which became more pronounced as higher demand with higher RPM occurred?

No, no test drive today. I'm trying to get past pneumonia right now and literally was falling on my face working on her today - but I was determined.
What do you all think?

 

[69Runner]

-Is voltage to the coil "normal" here, guys? Should running voltage be closer to 5V?
Starting voltage closer to 12V?
-Could the voltage regulator have been limiting voltage to the ignition, which became more pronounced as higher demand with higher RPM occurred?

Honestly, I'm not sure if the results from my car are a good comparison. I measured across the posts of the coil, thinking at the time it was a bit low. The negative post is also grounded via a condenser, being a points system.
Anyhow I would think 9-10VDC (starting voltage) is better, and your engine is sounding pretty healthy. Well done!

 

[moparedtn]

Honestly, I'm not sure if the results from my car are a good comparison. I measured across the posts of the coil, thinking at the time it was a bit low. The negative post is also grounded via a condenser, being a points system.
Anyhow I would think 9-10VDC is better, and your engine is sounding pretty healthy. Well done!

Appreciate that very much. Yeah, I'm thinking the voltage at the coil isn't quite up to snuff still. Still wondering why this critter has all those "extra" wires and a double ballast, not to mention "extra" wires on the coil??

 

[1967coronet]

Sounds good Ed, Hey I wouldn't put much worry yet into the plugs looking like crap, You been messing with carbs and tune ect. You need a decent up to temp road trip on a set of fresh ones to get a true picture.
You ever pull the bulk head connector apart and look for green fuzz growing
Your going to get this figured out Ed I have no doubt, between all the advice you have got and your dog with a bone temperament I have faith in ya buddy.

Decent comp test , pretty much confirms what the prev owner told you about the build.

 

[moparedtn]

Sounds good Ed, Hey I wouldn't put much worry yet into the plugs looking like crap, You been messing with carbs and tune ect. You need a decent up to temp road trip on a set of fresh ones to get a true picture.
You ever pull the bulk head connector apart and look for green fuzz growing
Your going to get this figured out Ed I have no doubt, between all the advice you have got and your dog with a bone temperament I have faith in ya buddy.

Decent comp test , pretty much confirms what the prev owner told you about the build.

Thanky kindly, sir.
Yeah, I actually have had that connector apart, mostly exploratory in nature (and to make sure that infamous burn-out situation with the charging line going to the gauge wasn't happening).
I think my next area to research is how this electronic ignition system is wired. The twin ballast is new to me and I've converted several of these to electronic using the kit over the years, never seen a dual ballast before on 'em.
That voltage to the coil is bugging me still, too.
I need to get a proper wiring diagram going here.