I need to hear from anyone running an Edelbrock 650 on their 440, please!

[451Mopar]

First - More initial ignition timing (try 12 degrees), and recurve the dist to control total advance to about 36-38 degrees.
Second - After starting car so fuel is in the fuel bowls, remove the carb top and check that the fuel level is at least as high as the notch in the baffle between the front and rear jets. If the float level is too low, you will always be chasing lean conditions regardless of any other adjustments. You may want to go one size larger jet in the secondary to start.
Third - Use a stiffer step up spring.
Fourth - Tune primary with rods/jets - An O2- gauge is really helpful.
Fifth - adjust the accelerator pump shot and discharge nozzle size.

I learned the hard way, changing jets/rods/accelerator/etc when the real problem was the fuel level was set too low. Once I fixed that, I had to put most of the other changes back to near stock settings.

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, sounds like your getting some good advice.
Couple things I will add is move the accelerator pump rod to the hole near the carb body of the three holes, that will give it a bigger shot of fuel.
I agree with the other post , you need some more advance at least 10 degree to start with.
Also if you you still have a bog or seems like its light on fuel at a pull pop the top off and check the float settings. They can be way off even on that new carb. You may not have enough fuel in the bowls to feed it. If I remember correct its 7/16 & 13/16 measured off the top plate to the top of the front end of the float.

 

[moparedtn]

Minor update:
Finally felt well enough to play with the GTX a little today.
Set initial timing at about 11BTDC and it seemed to like that a lot more, really settled down the idle and smoothed that out.
Every time I tried to buzz her over 4000RPM, though, she'd stumble and shudder and let loose a plume of smoke out the tailpipes.
I disconnected the vacuum advance on the distributor and plugged it off and she really liked that.

Go figure. Two different cams, two different stock distributors, two different brand carburetors and she STILL hates having the vacuum hooked up.

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, I know this is a fine time to ask after all the changes you have made but.......................... have you traced / looked over your fuel line from the tank to pump for any kinks, dents or restrictions ?

 

[moparedtn]

One of the first things I did when I got the car, my friend, but thanks for trying to help.

 

[moparedtn]

Hello all!
Happy to say I'm back from (almost) the dead and still have most of my body parts.
The man upstairs has decided apparently to let me stick around a bit longer.

Back to the subject at hand here....
Latest changes attempted were to "jet up" the Edelbrock as we discussed, according to the chart. It has the different primary and secondary jets now, along with the new "pink" springs in there, too.

The timing, as set to get the smoothest running at about 2500RPM, is now an indicated 16BTDC. Kinda shockingly high to me, but ok...
The vacuum advance remains disconnected. She still hates it when it's hooked up.

I also just installed a new 3/8" "pre-bent" fuel line from tank to pump for good measure - the old line looked 5/16", I swear.
That little return line has been totally removed and is gone. Outlet at tank plugged.
Gas cap is a new, vented one.

Oh, and I threw in some fresh "no ethanol" 93 octane in the tank to mix with whatever was left in there from last fall.

Results? Pretty much the same as before. As it climbs up over 4000 RPMs, she starts fighting the throttle and actually pops thru the exhaust occasionally. It will eventually rev over 5k, but it isn't real pretty over 4k. Rough and pop......pop....

I've already checked the carb's floats and all that and the secondaries are opening all the way with gas pedal. The secondary air door flappy thingy was set as Edelbrock (and some of you) said to and is working.

Still grasping at straws here. If you're new to this thread, please go back and read all the trials and tribulations I've been through with this car.
Still looking for help. Is the occasional popping a clue?

THANKS!

 

[terzmo]

650 is small for a 440..750 was stock cofiguration as I knew it...35 degree advance at 2200 rpm

 

[moparedtn]

650 is small for a 440..750 was stock cofiguration as I knew it...35 degree advance at 2200 rpm

If you'll read back on the postings, you'll see that this is an ongoing problem that occurred also with a new Holley 750 at one time as well, with all sorts of jetting and power valve changes tried there as well.
The Edelbrock AVS is new and is now set up exactly like the 750 Thunder insofar as jetting, springs, etc.
Thanks, Ed

 

[terzmo]

and your current timing?

 

[moparedtn]

and your current timing?

From my immediately prior post to your first:
"The timing, as set to get the smoothest running at about 2500RPM, is now an indicated 16BTDC. Kinda shockingly high to me, but ok...
The vacuum advance remains disconnected. She still hates it when it's hooked up."
Far as I can tell from the new degree-marked balancer, it's all in around 35.
MANY different timing settings and methods have been tried and this is the 2nd new distributor.
Please - read all the previous threads on this. It's a loooong-running issue.
Thanks,Ed

 

[1967coronet]

Ed, If its not yet, move your accelerator pump rod to the hole nearest the carb of the 3 holes.
It gives it a little more of a fuel shot.

 

[moparedtn]

Ed, If its not yet, move your accelerator pump rod to the hole nearest the carb of the 3 holes.
It gives it a little more of a fuel shot.

Ok, I forgot that trick so I'll do it...but that accelerator pump is a one-time deal, right? In other words, it doesn't "keep on giving" in regards to fuel flow when you've got your foot planted or when you're just trying to hold a constant 5k RPM, right?
Thanks, my friend. Good to see you.

 

[1967coronet]

Good to see you to Ed. Yep that just gives a little more fuel at the step on it point helps with the lean bog right at the start if that's whats going on.
I would try the springs lewtot suggested if you get that kit.
Glad you bumped up that timing also. I thought you was trying to go back to the lean burn days

 

[moparedtn]

Good to see you to Ed. Yep that just gives a little more fuel at the step on it point helps with the lean bog right at the start if that's whats going on.
I would try the springs lewtot suggested if you get that kit.
Glad you bumped up that timing also. I thought you was trying to go back to the lean burn days

As I said, I got the kit, did the jets/pink springs thing as lewtot suggested.
With this thing exhibiting the same behavior regardless of carb/distributor changes over and over, I gotta think something else is up.
I even wonder something like if the valve springs are just weaker than hell or some such. Who knows?
Damn frustrating. About ready to put a different motor in it.

 

[moparedtn]

You all think it would help with suggestions if I made a video of the car misbehaving?

 

[moparedtn]

Well, that got no responses...
Here's something else I want you all to look at for me please. This thing came already installed with Mopar electronic ignition, with a "double decker" ballast resistor as shown in this pic. I always wondered why, especially with what seems to me to be extra wires?
Yes, the voltage regulator looks like hell. Been meaning to replace it.
Do you all see anything odd here?

 

[SlinktRR]

that's the mid 70s ignition setup. The first Chrysler electronic ignition had a two prong ballast. As long as you are getting enough voltage at the coil then it doesn't matter. 9-10v is good. Have you checked voltages in the ignition?

for the carb problem stick a 2" spacer and see if you get a change in top end. You can get phenolic spacers of different heights from jegs for 10 dollars or so. I like spacers but I have limited room with the air grabber.

 

[moparedtn]

that's the mid 70s ignition setup. The first Chrysler electronic ignition had a two prong ballast. As long as you are getting enough voltage at the coil then it doesn't matter. 9-10v is good. Have you checked voltages in the ignition?

for the carb problem stick a 2" spacer and see if you get a change in top end. You can get phenolic spacers of different heights from jegs for 10 dollars or so. I like spacers but I have limited room with the air grabber.

Thanks for replying.
I'll check voltage at the coil, good idea. I'd swear this problem is electrical, but what the heck do I know.
I guess I should take pics of the rest of the engine. There is currently a 1/2" spacer under the Edelbrock AVS, mostly to clear the secondary linkage from the factory intake. It also allowed me to use their fuel line setup that passes to the front of the carb, which I like.

I'm going to swap out the plugs, replace that ratty voltage regulator (even though I get the sneaking suspicion it works fine) and see if I have proper voltage at the + of the new MSD coil.
I'm checking that when the car is running, right?

 

[1967coronet]

Ed I am no brain on this stuff but if the voltage checks out ok I have to ask if your still running the same push rods through all of this and have you ever ran a compression test on it ?
Just spit ballin here.

 

[rumblefish360]

650 is small for a 440..750 was stock cofiguration as I knew it...35 degree advance at 2200 rpm

Actualy, a 600 AFB came stock on early 440's. My old friends 67 Imperial w/a 440 had a 600 AFB on top. The early versions of that carb had no secondary air door, FWIW.

But I do agree a 750 would be better on top of this mill.

To the OP, would the carb clear with the thick Edelbrock carb gasket at approx. .333 thick? That spacer you have now is requiring you to have more pump shot to be needed. And not helping much for fuel distribution into the intake. The fuel is just crashing and probably pooling a little bit on top of it.