Lets talk about oil pump relief valve springs

[hunt2elk]

I did just replace the standard pump with a HV. That bumped my hot idle pressure up to 22 from 17, which was my main concern when this experimenting started. I know a lot of guys are running 20 psi at idle and are fine with that.
Since I ordered the 10w-40 from Summit instead of Amazon, I am not going to return it. Personally am curious as to what difference the hot idle and cruise pressures going from 10w-30 to 10w-40. Like I said before, this shop recommends 20w-50 Driven in everything that goes out their door. Right or wrong, I have no clue.

 

[hdwrench]

i agree with moparedtn , seems like your fairly close ! don’t get crazy ! you have good oil pressure, keep good oil pressure and the engine will run fine . your looking for volume with your oil ….. your pressures are close ….another thought , is your gauge accurate ?

 

[hunt2elk]

Woah now, none of that crazy talk about selling stuff. You've already done the homework with the engine
you've got and it sounds like you know how to get at least acceptable pressures by playing with springs,
so why isn't that good enough?
I don't want to see a good man walk away from this hobby; it needs all the good guys it can get.
Further, some of the best are advising you here. We're all benefitting from the knowledge being shared.
See? You're doing a good thing here.

Thanks Ed. Yeah, I just get so frustrated with people not being as **** as I am and not doing what I ask. Especially with all the hassle of pulling motors and the costs involved.

 

[hunt2elk]

i agree with moparedtn , seems like your fairly close ! don’t get crazy ! you have good oil pressure, keep good oil pressure and the engine will run fine . your looking for volume with your oil ….. your pressures are close ….another thought , is your gauge accurate ?

Yes, good Autometer gauges.

 

[moparedtn]

I did just replace the standard pump with a HV. That bumped my hot idle pressure up to 22 from 17, which was my main concern when this experimenting started. I know a lot of guys are running 20 psi at idle and are fine with that.
Since I ordered the 10w-40 from Summit instead of Amazon, I am not going to return it. Personally am curious as to what difference the hot idle and cruise pressures going from 10w-30 to 10w-40. Like I said before, this shop recommends 20w-50 Driven in everything that goes out their door. Right or wrong, I have no clue.

I'm running Driven 10W40 in Fred and have since this latest engine for a few years now.
Like you say, cold and cruising pressures are way fine - and idle dances a little above 20psi.
Fine for the crusty old cruiser life Fred lives.

 

[rickseeman]

It's been a few minutes since there was a post to this 3 page thread on low idle oil pressure so I'll go ahead and stir the pot. The 1965 Race Hemi manual says 8 psi idling at 1,000 rpms. That should get you guys going.

 

[hunt2elk]

It's been a few minutes since there was a post to this 3 page thread on low idle oil pressure so I'll go ahead and stir the pot. The 1965 Race Hemi manual says 8 psi idling at 1,000 rpms. That should get you guys going.

Then I am golden right where I am, lol.

 

[BSB67]

It's been a few minutes since there was a post to this 3 page thread on low idle oil pressure so I'll go ahead and stir the pot. The 1965 Race Hemi manual says 8 psi idling at 1,000 rpms. That should get you guys going.

Make sure you copy your post as this subject, these comments, and OP actions happen just like this one about every two weeks.

 

[RemCharger]

Speaking of chryslers recommendations..
Sounds like the engine builders agree

 

[rickseeman]

Make sure you copy your post as this subject, these comments, and OP actions happen just like this one about every two weeks.

You are so right. I did several oil system videos this winter. From the basics to rebuilding a B/RB oil pump. We are blessed with a simple, durable, easy to understand and easy to work on oil system. But some people haven't studied it much yet and it confuses them. There's only 3 moving parts in our oil pumps plus the spring. There's only 2 pumps and 2 pressure relief springs that we use. With that and the thickness of the oil you can get where you want to be. It doesn't have to be exact. The motor will live. Ray Barton Super Stock motors go 10,000 rpms on 37 psi. 65 Race Hemis idle at 8 psi. We do have some aging issues like 50 year old lifter bores leaking massive amounts of oil giving us lower than desired idle psi but that's why we have high volume pumps. And I'm glad we have good support from Melling. Just use the biggest oil pan that your situation will allow and make sure it's full of oil.

 

[lewtot184]

Thicker oil will generate more oil pressure on the gauge, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. More oil pressure due to thicker oil is not the same as more oil pressure due to more volume. What you want is more volume, not thicker oil. Thicker oil doesn't provide better lubrication, more volume would. They are totally different things but it gets confusing since the oil pressure is higher either way.
When you have a loose engine you need a higher volume pump to maintain the oil pressure. If you already have a HV pump then the next step is a higher HV pump such as the Milodon pump.
Using thick oil rather than a high volume pump is dangerous. You can destroy the engine if you go down that road too far. I once blew up a nice 426 on the dyno by making that mistake. Put some 50 weight in it and we spun some rod bearings at WOT. The oil pressure gauge showed 70 psi when the engine blew. There was 70 psi at the pressure port on the back of the block but the rods were not getting enough oil volume because the oil was too thick to move thru the passages in the block.

Whole lot of difference between 30wt and 50wt. I'm not 100% with you on this because I've been thru this. I don't like heavy oils and use straight 30wt as my limit but an hv pump will only make marginal low rpm differences and I think he already an hv pump on the engine.

It's been a few minutes since there was a post to this 3 page thread on low idle oil pressure so I'll go ahead and stir the pot. The 1965 Race Hemi manual says 8 psi idling at 1,000 rpms. That should get you guys going.

Are you old enough to remember what race hemi bearings were?

 

[moparedtn]

Are you old enough to remember what race hemi bearings were?

Since he builds them, I'd say he does (also - note on his profile he claims to be a young 67 years old ).
Check out his YouTube channel if you get the chance - dude knows his stuff.

 

[SlinktRR]

Put in HR1 15w50 Driven with a 7 qt pan and be happy. As long as it stays above 15-20psi hot idle it's fine.

 

[Kern Dog]

Thicker oil will generate more oil pressure on the gauge, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. More oil pressure due to thicker oil is not the same as more oil pressure due to more volume. What you want is more volume, not thicker oil. Thicker oil doesn't provide better lubrication, more volume would. They are totally different things but it gets confusing since the oil pressure is higher either way.
When you have a loose engine you need a higher volume pump to maintain the oil pressure. If you already have a HV pump then the next step is a higher HV pump such as the Milodon pump.
Using thick oil rather than a high volume pump is dangerous. You can destroy the engine if you go down that road too far. I once blew up a nice 426 on the dyno by making that mistake. Put some 50 weight in it and we spun some rod bearings at WOT. The oil pressure gauge showed 70 psi when the engine blew. There was 70 psi at the pressure port on the back of the block but the rods were not getting enough oil volume because the oil was too thick to move thru the passages in the block.

This is an interesting perspective. I have been thinking about this subject and have dealt with oil pressure lower than I'd prefer, despite a fresh rebuild with bearing clearances. I used a standard oil pump when I built the engine in 2022. I didn't like the pressure but read about changing the spring to increase the pressure. It helped a little but I still wasn't able to meet the numbers I've seen before with high volume pumps.

Whole lot of difference between 30wt and 50wt. I'm not 100% with you on this because I've been thru this. I don't like heavy oils and use straight 30wt as my limit but an hv pump will only make very marginal low rpm differences and I think he already has an hv pump on the engine. There are no band aids for this.

I switched from 10 w 40 to 20 w 50 and while the pressure did come up some, (especially when cold) I sometimes notice a delay in the pressure reading on a cold start along with a low pressure warning. I have aftermarket gauges from Dakota Digital with that feature.
This makes me wonder if what Andy states is true in my case. The thicker oil might provide a higher pressure reading but with less flow when it is needed. Maybe in some cases, mine included, higher volume is better than higher pressure.

 

[lewtot184]

This is an interesting perspective. I have been thinking about this subject and have dealt with oil pressure lower than I'd prefer, despite a fresh rebuild with bearing clearances. I used a standard oil pump when I built the engine in 2022. I didn't like the pressure but read about changing the spring to increase the pressure. It helped a little but I still wasn't able to meet the numbers I've seen before with high volume pumps.



I switched from 10 w 40 to 20 w 50 and while the pressure did come up some, (especially when cold) I sometimes notice a delay in the pressure reading on a cold start along with a low pressure warning. I have aftermarket gauges from Dakota Digital with that feature.
This makes me wonder if what Andy states is true in my case. The thicker oil might provide a higher pressure reading but with less flow when it is needed. Maybe in some cases, mine included, higher volume is better than higher pressure.

You may have filter drain back and a heavier oil might make it more noticeable.

 

[rickseeman]

Are you old enough to remember what race hemi bearings were?

Actually, they were just F-77 Trimetal, which I believe was the same in the Street Hemi. I've had a few 1965 Super Stock Dodges. It's my favorite car.

 

[lewtot184]

Reas

Actually, they were just F-77 Trimetal, which I believe was the same in the Street Hemi. I've had a few 1965 Super Stock Dodges. It's my favorite car.

Reason I asked was I'll be 76yrs old in a few weeks and not very often I find people who played with this stuff 50-60yrs ago. I remember all 426 hemis and super stock wedges having those wide groove clevite 77 mains (2896p,..?), and the 665p clevite rod bearing. Don't think any of those are made anymore but they were loose bleeders,...lol. I also remember buying some trw micro dragster bearings (828m) for a 426 s/s wedge I was hoping to build but never got there. Probably no longer made. You just got me reminiscing about my young radical days.

 

[moparedtn]

Sorry for the thread interrupt, but @rickseeman just posted video of his start-up of his Keith Black
hemi build on his YouTube channel. His series on putting together that engine, which included using
stuff he's been hoarding for years in some cases, is a true original KB aluminum block beast with
all the goodies - his "holy grail" KB engine.
The gear drive on it alone is quite the talker - but damn, for a "granma cam", that thing sounds like
it could spin the earth on its' axis.

I hope he continues to post videos to his channel. It's chock full of stuff that will prove informative to
the hobby for decades to come.
Y'all check it out - heck, subscribe if you have the notion to:

 

[hdwrench]

Speaking of chryslers recommendations..
Sounds like the engine builders agree
View attachment 1681649View attachment 1681653

View attachment 1681651

thanks for that info , cool to read ….

 

[Geoff 2]

Yep,
I remember seeing the wide grooved mains for the Max Wedge....
Some even grooved the crank....& found it was a good way to break cranks...