Lookie what $5000 buys you....

[Kern Dog]

That is my goal as well. My XP Charger had rust in the very same area and my 2001 repair was structurally fine but not pretty. I am tempted to replace it as well someday!

 

[eldubb440]

I may be over-thinking it. It wouldn't be the first time. EACH time before I embark on a new task, I ask questions, do research, make lists....It is the unknown that has me thinking that is a difficult job.
This will be my first structural replacement job. I've done floor pans, quarter skins, roof skins and other stuff but the structural members were not disturbed. What concerns me is being off a little here, a little there and then none of the sheet metal lines up and gaps right.
I have a FSM that shows many measurements but I'd expect to see more. For instance, the RH rail is currently compressed a bit rearward. It can be pulled forward but even when it measures right, it could be further off the floor than the other side if it is still bent upward. Where is the reference measurement for that? The fender to rocker gap may be a guide as to the rail being close to "spec" but these fenders do flex a lot.
I can do criss cross measurements to get the front square. It could be slightly corkscrewed though.
This is why when I see guys post pictures of their cars with the entire rear of the car missing behind the C pillars, I wonder how the heck they get it all back together with good panel gaps and proper fitment.

1) if you replace the rail, all the way back to the torsion member, it is no longer compressed a bit rearward
2) mock up all front sheet meta (doors, fenders, hood, lower valence, grille and lights ) with a minimal amount of tack welds and screws holding your repair together
3) adjust your repair to achieve near perfect alignment..... "bring your repair (rail and inner fender) to the outer panels"
4) yes, fenders flex, but when bolted all the way around they get stiff and find a happy place
5) the hood aligned with the cowl will dictate the front being square..... hood stops on top of radiator support should be equal
6)the more you mock up, the easier it is.......... it all only fits one way
7)break it down and weld it up

yes.... everyone over thinks it
the outer metal dictates everything, starting with the doors and hood

the nice thing about collision work is, you can't really make it any worse....... and you'll be surprised how easily it all falls in line

you won't be happy paying someone else to have the fun

 

[Kern Dog]

I am excited to get to it. I am about 80% done with the A/C job in my other car, I have to finish it and move it out to have a wide spot to do this work.

 

[Hey-O]

A body man once told me if it’s bent, repair the part, if it’s kinked, replace it. Kinked parts will never be right again In his opinion. Just replace the frame rail, it's easier for you in the long run versus playing games with something can cause you problem as far as keeping suspension, engine and the rest of the drive-train mounting locations in spec. After you replace the frame rail put the car on jack stands and look for corresponding holes on the underside of each rail, front, rear and center. Drop a plumb bob (like you don't know how to use one of those) to the ground and mark it . Roll the car away and then measure up and check to be sure length and diagonals are correct. Draw a center line (pop a caulk line) and all your diagonals should cross the center line . You're not driving the salt flats so anything close to an 1/8 inch should be good. It's like building a house, you're a carpenter, it's all about finding points of reference, same **** different material. eldubb440 right about the hood showing square and the hood stops on top of radiator support being equal. Back to basic carpentry, the hood is built square and will only fit in a square hole. When you and I build arches, there is always reference points and or ways to check for square. All the **** you've built, this to shall pass..... Let The Horses Run....... LOL

 

[eldubb440]

eldubb440 is right

every single time...... just ask my wife

 

[coronet68mx]

every single time...... just ask my wife

And then you wake up...

 

[Kern Dog]

Yeah, I am going to replace the frame rail and the apron but to get the cowl back within the ballpark and NOT needing a half gallon of Bondo, I'm going to pull the apron myself.

 

[Kern Dog]

Why not save the rail?
Well..... There is this kink here you can't see but also...

 

[Kern Dog]

The cowl....

Now see how an unmolested one looks:

 

[coronet68mx]

Basically the hole front right?

 

[Kern Dog]

Well, the right corner anyway!
I'm anxious to see how the cowl responds when I pull on the apron. A buddy suggested that I apply heat to the cowl. I'm wondering if that is necessary...the panel dented without heat, shouldn't it pull back out without heat?

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Have you got the ability to chain the car down and rig a pull tower?

Look around at the linked images & you’ll see what I’m talking about

https://www.google.com/search?q=aut...VYo54KHSk4DcQQ_AUoAnoECA0QAg&biw=1024&bih=638

I’m not suggesting you buy a bunch of stuff, I’m suggesting you use innovative ideas to accomplish what they are selling

 

[Kern Dog]

Pretty cool idea:

 

[eldubb440]

get rid of the rail and the inner all together, beat the firewall out from the inside, it don't need much...... I'd probably go as far as cutting the damaged piece of cowl off, beating it straight and welding it back on........ pulling any of that is a waste of time unless you are equipped; even then, I'd probably have it fixed without any pulling............and I have floor anchors everywhere

 

[eldubb440]

that's why I asked about the door fit/ hinge pillar in a previous post...... if the pillar and post was pushed back, you'd be setttin up for some pulling

 

[Kern Dog]

I can't get behind the cowl to push. The firewall itself doesn't look so bad, just that dented area forward of the cowl.
Can you see where the cowl top is curled down? My common sense tells me that if the apron is pulled down and forward, that curl will reverse. I may be wrong but I am curious to see for myself.
Yeah, I guess I could cut it out, work the metal and weld it back in. I sometimes have to try something just to prove to myself that it works or that it doesn't.
In theory, I understand your point about how all of the panels fit only one way but until I see it for myself, I am not as confident. In construction, I am used to building things to meet the specifications detailed in the blueprints. Looking at these cars, it seems that without tabs and jigs, it is easy to be off the mark enough to make stuff really difficult. I can't just drill out spotwelds and expect to match the old welds on the replacement frame rail to match up to the replacement fender apron since they came from different cars. From what I have seen, there was not a template for spotwelds, just a minimum amount they installed in order to meet standards. I could measure and compare to the front stub I have in terms of gaps, reveals and squareness.

 

[kiwigtx]

I can't get behind the cowl to push. The firewall itself doesn't look so bad, just that dented area forward of the cowl.
Can you see where the cowl top is curled down? My common sense tells me that if the apron is pulled down and forward, that curl will reverse. I may be wrong but I am curious to see for myself.
Yeah, I guess I could cut it out, work the metal and weld it back in. I sometimes have to try something just to prove to myself that it works or that it doesn't.
In theory, I understand your point about how all of the panels fit only one way but until I see it for myself, I am not as confident. In construction, I am used to building things to meet the specifications detailed in the blueprints. Looking at these cars, it seems that without tabs and jigs, it is easy to be off the mark enough to make stuff really difficult. I can't just drill out spotwelds and expect to match the old welds on the replacement frame rail to match up to the replacement fender apron since they came from different cars. From what I have seen, there was not a template for spotwelds, just a minimum amount they installed in order to meet standards. I could measure and compare to the front stub I have in terms of gaps, reveals and squareness.

Remember that panel steel bends differently to wood Greg.....it never ceases to amaze me what a good Tin-knocker can do with a wrecked car. Take eldubb's advice and you won't go far wrong.

 

[Kern Dog]

THis stub came from a 1970 Belvedere.

 

[Hey-O]

get rid of the rail and the inner all together, beat the firewall out from the inside, it don't need much...... I'd probably go as far as cutting the damaged piece of cowl off, beating it straight and welding it back on........ pulling any of that is a waste of time unless you are equipped; even then, I'd probably have it fixed without any pulling............and I have floor anchors everywhere

View attachment 832179

I agree!! Don't buy anything and drill here and pull there and waste your time and money for a one time deal that you're going to end up not getting right. You can pull all day and it's never going to fix the top corner of that firewall to the point where it still won't need some beating on. If you can't get to it to beat out, cut it out. The rail, apron and cut what ever it takes to get back to straight metal in that corner. You have everything it takes right there lying around in parts.

 

[eldubb440]

2 weekends for a first timer, you have everything you need........ stay with me

a great example is the car in the pic I posted. It was pulled out of a stack at a junk yard........ front of the roof was crushed down, bending the car in half. Much more involved than yours.

Both inner and outer rockers were badly kinked behind the torsion bar member; the back end of the doors were about 4 inches above the quarters, thus the whole front was nose diving.

The above picture is after typical rear end rust repair and the roof being attached at the quarters only, the bent outer rockers were removed, exposing the kinked inner rockers. I actually put a cut in the inner rocker right on the kink to relieve the pressure.

I set the car up as pictured above and simply jacked the front up until the doors fit,and All other measurements fell in line. Once where I liked it, I straightened the inner rocker kinks, welded the cuts, and reinforced the inner rockers with a 16 ga plate over top (on the inside where it's never seen).

then the new outer rockers were installed and windshield posts welded up, giving back it's strength and rigidity. With doors fitting to rockers and quarters, and a Hood bolted on, the rest of the front lined right up.....no frame table, no elaborate machinery, and no over-thinking! the sheet metal is your guide, and it does not lie!