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Low Power Output on 451

Garys1969RR

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Just bought a 65 Belvedere, 451 engine. (they said). It has a Weiand Team G intake, Holley 850, headers, Eddy Performer RPM heads. Compression on all cylinders is 210 to 220 PSI. Not sure what cam it has, but it idles fairly smooth. Better than my other 451 with a 509 cam idles. So I think the cam is a fairly mild one. Ignition timing is set to 38 degrees total advance. The problem is this thing has no torque/power! It will barely spin the tires! Can't think of what could be wrong, unless its a total mis match of parts. Any ideas/suggestions? I'm thinking cam and intake may be mis match to each other.

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Oh yea, electric fuel pump in back. Using 96 octane fuel
 
Intake manifold bolts are too long. Water pump inlet on wrong side of engine? Too much air pressure in right front tire.
 
Ha ha ha, dont know alot about how this engine was built, Other than what is obvious externally. It runs ok, but the I built a 451 for my RR, and it can run circles around this thing.
 
Hmmm. Thats odd. I would expect that is they were selling it as a stroker motor they would have receipts and paperwork to back it up. I keep all the paper work for what has been done to my engines and cars in general. They cant even tell you what cam it has? You should have all that info. Pistons cam rockers. You name it.
 
Maybe the rear end is crap with a numerically low gear set (2.45 - 2.93).
 
I'll guess that the fuel pressure is in the 5-7 range, right?
You are getting full throttle? I often swap parts around to pinpoint a problem. I have several ECUs, distributors, carburetors, etc to try. Is the exhaust system blocked in any way? I've heard of baffles coming loose inside mufflers. That would surely affect power.
The 2.76 gear suggestion is valid too.
 
Too many unknowns? could be the tuneup, or the way it was built?
I's start with the basics, pull all the spark plugs and inspect them.
Make sure the airfilter lid is not too close the the fuel bowl vents (I think the 850 has angle cut vents, but it easy to check.)
Check all the plug wires resistance and insulation (if in doubt of their condition, get new ones.)
check cap/rotor/rotor phasing/ignition coil.
Check compression and leakdown test all the cylinders.
Pull valve cover and inspect rocker arms and pushrods. Check valve lash or lifter pre-load if hydraulic. Measure the cam lobe lift to get an idea of the cam size.
You may be able to get a small degree wheel in the car and even check the cam install centerline and opening/closing events to see the duration size of the cam.
I would think with 210 to 220 PSI the cam is either pretty small or way advanced? If you have a visual inspection probe you might be able to see through the sparkplug hole to see if the pistons are flattop, dish or dome.
Check fuel delivery at the carb. Connect a long fuel line and place the end in a 5-gallon fuel can, and time how long it takes to fill the fuel can.
You should get at least 1-gallon per minute (60 gallons/hour.) If you have a fuel pressure gauge check the maximum pressure, you can also "T" into the fuel line, and add a restriction (clamp on hose, etc) after the "T" and re-check the fuel flow with some pressure.
If the fuel flow starts out good then slows down, the fuel tank may not be venting. Remove the filler cap to vent, and re-test.
If all that checks out, and it looks like the carb is out of tune, you may want to go to tune on a chassis dyno with a wideband O2 sensor.
The Carb shop did a good job on my friends '68 Baracuda. I have also used Dyno Pro, but made the changes myself.
 
I'd pull a head and measure bore, stroke and distance below deck. I'd then measures combustion chamber and get my CR. and while it's apart, I'd measure the lift and duration of the cam with a degree wheel and a dial indicator.

I bought my car with a '452' stroker. Now I knew it wasn't one (for starters it was a RB 413 block) but the guy insisted, so I said what the hell, the price is right on the car even without a motor, sounds like something pretty wild. Nope - just a low compression 413 when I pulled it apart.
 
Good ideas so far. Going to get a dial indicator and check the cam timing this week end. Also may try a Holley Street Dominator intake and a smaller carb. Exhaust sounds free flowing, and dumps right in front of the tires. But could be a problem there as the headers appear to be 1 7/8 " tubes, and they connect up higher near to where the stock manifolds would connect. Tri Y design? I am thinking there are probably several factors reducing the potential power output these heads are capable of. It is a 630 block, originally a 400. Haven't checked the stroke.

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Hmmm. Thats odd. I would expect that is they were selling it as a stroker motor they would have receipts and paperwork to back it up. I keep all the paper work for what has been done to my engines and cars in general. They cant even tell you what cam it has? You should have all that info. Pistons cam rockers. You name it.
This was a strange purchase. I bought it from a title loan company out of Phoenix. They said it was a 9 to 1 C/R 451, according to the info they had. So was never able to talk to the original owner. Trying to track down the engine builder at this time.

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Spark plugs burn a nice dark tan color.
 
This has Ross flat top pistons. The builder said it's a 9 to 1 C/R motor. Can't see how we getting so much cranking compression. (210 to 220 PSI) Cam is a 280 duration, .480 lift. Comp cams XE 268 H. The Team G intake is a total mis match for this cam operating range. So will swap intakes and see what that does.
 
Man, what a messed up combination! I'm betting the cam is more of an RV type cam and the intake probably doesn't open until nearly TDC.....that would account for the high cylinder pressure. I had a 400 that was similar to this except it didn't have big heads and a big carb. It would ping once it reached 180 degrees but with a shot of race fuel, it wouldn't ping and would run a mid 15 at the track in a 3/4 ton pickup with 3.55 gears.
 
This has Ross flat top pistons. The builder said it's a 9 to 1 C/R motor. Can't see how we getting so much cranking compression. (210 to 220 PSI) Cam is a 280 duration, .480 lift. Comp cams XE 268 H. The Team G intake is a total mis match for this cam operating range. So will swap intakes and see what that does.

Something is messed up, a 451 with zero deck flat tops, and 84cc (RPM) heads should be around 10:1 compression or more, but even figuring 10.4:1 compression , the cam would have to be installed at 90 degree (or less) intake center to get those pressures.
I would check the lobe lift and make sure the lobes are not wiped out?
 
Ok so you found the builder? Pretty lucky.

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Btw, I have that same cam in my low compression 413. Good cam for my application, but who would put that in a stroker?
 
Yes I found the engine builder. He said it used to run great! I am thinking possibly the spark may be weak. Has a chrome ign box on it. Gonna spend the day trying to figure it out, changing parts around. We have a strong running 383 we can swap distributors/intake with to see whats happening. Will check the cam out when I have the valley pan off. Gonna check: carb, intake, timing (again), plugs (again) and spark strength. Guess the coil is suspect also. Will post results later.

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Intake manifold bolts are too long. Water pump inlet on wrong side of engine? Too much air pressure in right front tire.
I found out the intake manifold bolts ARE too long. So they had to cast the 4 inside runners with a big bulge in them. This creates an airflow wave which upsets the linear flow, thus making the manifold perform poorly.
 
Went to a Holley Street Dominator intake, with a 750 vacumn sec carb. That helped low end and throttle response a lot. I think the cam is way too mild for this build. The headers don't look like they are the right ones either. So lots of issues to work out on this engine.
 
I'd pull a head and measure bore, stroke and distance below deck. I'd then measures combustion chamber and get my CR. and while it's apart, I'd measure the lift and duration of the cam with a degree wheel and a dial indicator.

I bought my car with a '452' stroker. Now I knew it wasn't one (for starters it was a RB 413 block) but the guy insisted, so I said what the hell, the price is right on the car even without a motor, sounds like something pretty wild. Nope - just a low compression 413 when I pulled it apart.
X2 Sounds like a mix match or something is binding
 
I'd lose the holley sd and use a DP intake

Hmmm. Thats odd. I would expect that is they were selling it as a stroker motor they would have receipts and paperwork to back it up. I keep all the paper work for what has been done to my engines and cars in general. They cant even tell you what cam it has? You should have all that info. Pistons cam rockers. You name it.

never keep paper work.... when the wife finds it you're done
 
You may just have a cluster F of parts there. May be better and tair down and go through it your self and salvige what you can and buld it rite ?? Know your self whats in it is better by far.
 
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