Ring/pinion pattern off...

[icetech]

K, have never done a ring and pinion before.. a little information first. I mentioned to a buddy i wouldn't mind a suregrip.. he shows up a few days later with a 4.57 in a 742 case that had never been run but setup many years ago.. Some local old racers gave it to him for me to put in my car.. nice guys

Anyway drove the car for the first time last week, noise is ok on accel on decel it howls and on that inbetween area of accel/decel it was noisy.. So i pulled it to check things, and Backlash was .012, not massive but too much.. i have it at .005 right now (didn't have the spec with me, will adjust it to 6-7 when i work on it again)

also checked the pattern, one side is way down the gear, other side in the middle but odd pattern. If i were to move the pinion on the deep one out a bit wouldn't that take the other side higher also? I can live with the noise if it's not hurting anything.. The gears have a total of 20 miles on them so far, so nothing should be eaten up yet..
Also.. not sure whos gears they are, i am including a pic of the only numbers on the ring.

P.S. if anyone in the macomb/shelby MI area want's to set this up so i don't need to buy a bearing splitter/press and crapola lemme know

And wow does a tiny bit of that dye go a long long way

 

[dvw]

The pattern towards the toe means nothing. It's always hard to read a pattern on a used gear. Let's see the pinion. With a used gear set howl on float only (not quite coast down but no power applied is the toughest to eliminate. If anything from what I can see the pinion might be to deep. Run the pinion with a socket attached to a drill motor ( not an impact). Hold a fiber stick against the outer edge of the ring gear to provide load. This will give a better pattern reading. Swapping the backlash from a set that has been run in isn't going to do.it any favors either.
Doug

 

[icetech]

The pattern towards the toe means nothing. It's always hard to read a pattern on a used gear. Let's see the pinion. With a used gear set howl on float only (not quite coast down but no power applied is the toughest to eliminate. Swapping the backlash from a set that has been run in isn't going to do.it any favors either.
Doug

it's a new gearset that was never ran other than the 20 miles i have put on it just testing the car around the neighborhood

 

[MWbirdLOVER70]

K, have never done a ring and pinion before.. a little information first. I mentioned to a buddy i wouldn't mind a suregrip.. he shows up a few days later with a 4.57 in a 742 case that had never been run but setup many years ago.. Some local old racers gave it to him for me to put in my car.. nice guys

Anyway drove the car for the first time last week, noise is ok on accel on decel it howls and on that inbetween area of accel/decel it was noisy.. So i pulled it to check things, and Backlash was .012, not massive but too much.. i have it at .005 right now (didn't have the spec with me, will adjust it to 6-7 when i work on it again)

also checked the pattern, one side is way down the gear, other side in the middle but odd pattern. If i were to move the pinion on the deep one out a bit wouldn't that take the other side higher also? I can live with the noise if it's not hurting anything.. The gears have a total of 20 miles on them so far, so nothing should be eaten up yet..
Also.. not sure whos gears they are, i am including a pic of the only numbers on the ring.

P.S. if anyone in the macomb/shelby MI area want's to set this up so i don't need to buy a bearing splitter/press and crapola lemme know

And wow does a tiny bit of that dye go a long long way

View attachment 1748357

View attachment 1748358

View attachment 1748359

You add SureGrip additive?

 

[icetech]

You add SureGrip additive?

no, it's a cone type, i thought additive was for the clutch type? also i believe thats to stop noise in turning not whine/howl?

 

[AR67GTX]

Too big of a pinion shim/pinion too deep.

 

[dvw]

it's a new gearset that was never ran other than the 20 miles i have put on it just testing the car around the neighborhood

Let's see pattern with the dill. Pinion as well.
Doug

 

[R/T Boy 67]

This

 

[icetech]

Let's see pattern with the dill. Pinion as well.
Doug

Ill see if i can get a pic of the pinion tomorrow.. then time to order stuffs

 

[Lefty71]

it's a new gearset that was never ran other than the 20 miles i have put on it just testing the car around the neighborhood

Maybe, but are`nt we seeing a 60`s mopar part number and a `68? date code on the ring gear pic.

 

[john-9]

K, have never done a ring and pinion before.. a little information first. I mentioned to a buddy i wouldn't mind a suregrip.. he shows up a few days later with a 4.57 in a 742 case that had never been run but setup many years ago.. Some local old racers gave it to him for me to put in my car.. nice guys

Anyway drove the car for the first time last week, noise is ok on accel on decel it howls and on that inbetween area of accel/decel it was noisy.. So i pulled it to check things, and Backlash was .012, not massive but too much.. i have it at .005 right now (didn't have the spec with me, will adjust it to 6-7 when i work on it again)

also checked the pattern, one side is way down the gear, other side in the middle but odd pattern. If i were to move the pinion on the deep one out a bit wouldn't that take the other side higher also? I can live with the noise if it's not hurting anything.. The gears have a total of 20 miles on them so far, so nothing should be eaten up yet..
Also.. not sure whos gears they are, i am including a pic of the only numbers on the ring.

P.S. if anyone in the macomb/shelby MI area want's to set this up so i don't need to buy a bearing splitter/press and crapola lemme know

And wow does a tiny bit of that dye go a long long way

View attachment 1748357

View attachment 1748358

View attachment 1748359

pattern is too deep on the drive side it needs to be moved up on the tooth which will improve the coast pattern as well ,, if you end up buying the tools to do this try taking 0.003 out of the pinion shim ,, the pattern should improve moving up the tooth ,, keep doing this till you get a well centered pattern. also check the pinion bearing preload , if this has new bearings in it it should be in the 20 - 25 inch/pound range ,, 8-15 inch/pound for used bearings . keep the backlash at 0.006 - 0.008 range . if you could get it over to Windsor i could make the changes you need. if this is actually a ''new'' gear set with the 20 miles on it the shim change should show improvement. seen to many ''new '' gear sets that were not new at all but advertised as such.

 

[icetech]

pattern is too deep on the drive side it needs to be moved up on the tooth which will improve the coast pattern as well ,, if you end up buying the tools to do this try taking 0.003 out of the pinion shim ,, the pattern should improve moving up the tooth ,, keep doing this till you get a well centered pattern. also check the pinion bearing preload , if this has new bearings in it it should be in the 20 - 25 inch/pound range ,, 8-15 inch/pound for used bearings . keep the backlash at 0.006 - 0.008 range . if you could get it over to Windsor i could make the changes you need. if this is actually a ''new'' gear set with the 20 miles on it the shim change should show improvement. seen to many ''new '' gear sets that were not new at all but advertised as such.

Thanks, i was wondering how much i should try taking out at a time.. and i ordered tools yesterday, will get it apart then order shims.. need to learn to do it myself anyway And yeah, when i put it in the car it had zero wear marks and was still all dull black from the coating still.. Will see how it does, i didn't know bringing the drive side up will bring the coast side down, that's the main thing i was curious bout in the post. I think the way the gears mesh and react to adjustment took a little bit to think bout.. i'm slow

 

[AR67GTX]

To get the pattern right can be a trial and error process. That’s one reason I sacrificed a rear pinion bearing to ream it out to a light friction fit to speed up and make disassembly easier. Then I could run different pinion depth patterns trying to get it as close as possible. I ran one that I knew was too deep and then one that was about 10 thou shallower and then started narrowing in from both directions. Some guys have a pinion depth gauge set up tool to establish the pinion shim needed and some seem to swear by them and others swear at them. In confession, my set up still has a brief range of float whine but it did end up much better than what the rear end shop did with it.

 

[icetech]

To get the pattern right can be a trial and error process. That’s one reason I sacrificed a rear pinion bearing to ream it out to a light friction fit to speed up and make disassembly easier. Then I could run different pinion depth patterns trying to get it as close as possible. I ran one that I knew was too deep and then one that was about 10 thou shallower and then started narrowing in from both directions. Some guys have a pinion depth gauge set up tool to establish the pinion shim needed and some seem to swear by them and others swear at them. In confession, my set up still has a brief range of float whine but it did end up much better than what the rear end shop did with it.

yeah, just ordered a shim kit... no spare bearing, when i destroy the old one getting it off i'll order 2 I'm kinda glad it's so far off honestly.. gives me hope of making it quiet.

 

[Rebelrouser]

K, have never done a ring and pinion before.. a little information first. I mentioned to a buddy i wouldn't mind a suregrip.. he shows up a few days later with a 4.57 in a 742 case that had never been run but setup many years ago.. Some local old racers gave it to him for me to put in my car.. nice guys

Anyway drove the car for the first time last week, noise is ok on accel on decel it howls and on that inbetween area of accel/decel it was noisy.. So i pulled it to check things, and Backlash was .012, not massive but too much.. i have it at .005 right now (didn't have the spec with me, will adjust it to 6-7 when i work on it again)

also checked the pattern, one side is way down the gear, other side in the middle but odd pattern. If i were to move the pinion on the deep one out a bit wouldn't that take the other side higher also? I can live with the noise if it's not hurting anything.. The gears have a total of 20 miles on them so far, so nothing should be eaten up yet..
Also.. not sure whos gears they are, i am including a pic of the only numbers on the ring.

P.S. if anyone in the macomb/shelby MI area want's to set this up so i don't need to buy a bearing splitter/press and crapola lemme know

And wow does a tiny bit of that dye go a long long way

View attachment 1748357

View attachment 1748358

View attachment 1748359

First you may be doing it, but the patterns don't look like it, you have to take a screwdriver and hold tension on the ring gear, as you rotate, so the pinon is hard to turn by hand that squishes out the marking compound giving you a readable pattern. If you are holding tension and still get that triangle shaped pattern, my experience tells me, you will never make those gears quiet. And 20 miles is enough to wear the gear if set up wrong. Contrary to what some guys think a noisy gear will not wear in and quiet down.

 

[icetech]

First you may be doing it, but the patterns don't look like it, you have to take a screwdriver and hold tension on the ring gear, as you rotate, so the pinon is hard to turn by hand that squishes out the marking compound giving you a readable pattern. If you are holding tension and still get that triangle shaped pattern, my experience tells me, you will never make those gears quiet. And 20 miles is enough to wear the gear if set up wrong. Contrary to what some guys think a noisy gear will not wear in and quiet down.

well ****... will still set it up properly and see what happens.. that doesn't cost much.. if i change gears i have no idea what i will go to anyway.. 4.57 is fun but a bit much

 

[AR67GTX]

Rebelrouser is probably right. I had mine set up at a driveline shop about 2 miles from my house. They were making noise immediately and I drove to the shop, took him for a 2-3 mile drive in an access road and then back home and pulled it back out to give back to him - maybe 10-15 miles most. He and his mechanic thought the pattern still looked good and he just made excuses for the gears being bad - US Gear.

I went to work on it and ran about 10 patterns and realized that while his drive side had a decent pattern, the coast side was not. I think the shop only concerned themselves with the drive side. I ended up finding the best overlap of decent drive side and decent coast side patterns was a little shallower than they had shimmed it. That got rid of the coast side whine but as I said it still has a bit of float whine over a 5-10 mph range.

In my case the best looking pattern for the drive side was at a greater pinion depth than what it was for the coast side. So I had to look for the pinion depth overlap area that gave me what I thought was a good pattern on both sides. I also fooled around with different backlash settings but didn’t really notice much effect. It may be a more subtle adjustment issue than I have an awareness for - don’t know.

By the way dvw is the expert on this so follow his lead. He likes to see a nice clear pattern before judging what, if anything, is needed.

 

[MWbirdLOVER70]

no, it's a cone type, i thought additive was for the clutch type? also i believe thats to stop noise in turning not whine/howl?

Ok just used to using it since I’ve owned mopars and suregrips. Was just my 2 cents

 

[icetech]

got a shim kit from dr diff and spent a couple of hours tonight trying different thicknesses from .090 to .150 and that pattern stays pretty much the same other than moving up or down from crown to root.. soo.. just crap gears i figure.. going to drive them noisy for a bit before i decide what to replace them with. My motor won't make much power so the 4.57s will be fun but i figured i would end up changing them out eventually just not sure what for yet...

I only drive 6 miles each way to work on straight 2 lane roads so just wanna have some fun there and back

Only major issue to figure out now is why the TV doesn't work... car shifts 1-2-3 at the same low rpm no matter throttle.. but thats for another day..

Thanks guys.

 

[Lefty71]

TV is overrated..... maybe it always has been lol.