Tremec TKX 5-Speed Conversion

[Kern Dog]

I want to state that I don’t claim to be an expert on measuring the runout. I’m operating on basic experience and common sense.
So often, I jump into something new and may stumble around so close to doing it right, only a few small mistakes keep me from doing it correct right away.
This damn clumsy setup could have been made to fit better 2 years ago if I had cut it down like I did today.

Now it sits somewhat square to the centerline.

Look how much better it fits with that center rod cut back.

This is a spare 440 that I put on this dolly cart to test the runout.

I figured that before we blame the SST bell, I want to know if it really is the problem. If Rich were to ship this back and get another that is machined exactly the same, we’d lose a week and still be where we are right now.
It makes sense to me to test these other bells on this other engine to see what we find.
I used a beat up torque wrench and a socket to rotate the crank…

If the numbers come in within spec on another block, then we can’t blame SST. If the direction of the runout is the same and about the same amount, then that would seem to indicate that the bell is likely to blame.

 

[HawkRod]

Rich and Kern:

Looks like you are systematically working through questions and making progress. It makes sense to check the bellhousing that came from SST to be absolutely sure it is the problem. Plus, having multiple data points and checks gives you leverage when you talk to SST.

One comment you made about offset dowels:

I did find that the offset dowels that Rich bought from Robb MC do have a little bit of wiggle room in the holes in the bell housing, as if the bell holes are a couple thousandths bigger than the holes in the block that the dowels fit into. It is because of this that I've wondered if the part of the dowel that the bell rides on has the full effect of their rated size.
In other words, given the slight "slop", would a .021 dowel only move the bell .018 or so?

Mine have allen key locks in the center. If offset dowels are a press fit then you can't rotate them, so they won't be as tight as factory dowels. Thus, the allen keys are what should get rid of the "wiggle room" once the offset dowels are set as needed.

 

[Kern Dog]

Thanks. These are similar.

The split end does go into the block and spread open as the Allen screw is twisted in deeper.
I was referring to the end with the machined flats. That end isn't a snug fit in the holes in the bell.

I don't have any expensive dial calipers to measure these to the gnat's *** but I am going to try with what I have. I still suspect that the offset they are rated at having may not be fully realized due to some lost motion from the clearance between the .021 size and the bell holes. This wouldn't be an issue if we only needed .017 or so to close the gap.
More updates later.....

 

[watermelon]

silly question here - did the TIR fall within spec window?

one thing i recall doing when i installed my TKO was ensuring the flywheel and bell housing were torqued per fsm when aligning. also, i used Summit Racing Brand non-adjustable dowels.


watermelon

 

[Kern Dog]

There have been some errors made that are getting discovered along the way.
The block had some imperfections on the mounting face that may have affected the readings. The RH dowel had fallen out Friday and stuck to the iron bell housing we mounted up and tested.

We rechecked the SST bell yesterday and the runout numbers of .048 had increased to somewhere in the .066 range. I discovered later that the stock dowel was missing when I saw it stuck in that iron orange bell...

There was a "dowel" in there above the stock .497" dowel hole....it is a 3/8" bolt with the head cut off that was used to hang the bell easier before putting the bolts in place. Without the real dowel in there, the bell surely slipped out of position despite that 3/8" dowel being there. There is a size difference between the shank of the 3/8" bolts and the mounting holes in the bell so without the .497 stock dowel in place, the bell wasn't secure in it's place.

 

[Kern Dog]

A test run today with that car bell housing mounted to a spare 440 showed numbers so damn close, this bell could be used as is with no offset dowels at all.

This 440 has never been apart.

At 3 and 9, it has a total of .004 TIR, or .002 off center. If the SST bell was this close, we’d have never had this much “fun”.
Next up was the SST bell. I will let Rich tell the full story but for now, I’ll state that this 440 and his 440 delivered similar runout numbers and direction of runout, showing that the SST bell actually is machined off center enough to need correction through the offset dowels.
More to follow….

 

[coloradodave]

Greg's modified dial indicator should make it much easier. For me, this is what helped me get it right: A write up of the above SST video.
1- Set-up gauge.
2- Pick any point as your ZERO.
3- Spin the crank 360* to make sure it comes back to your ZERO. Ignore numbers on this trip.
4- Turn the crank 360* and mark the MOST POSITIVE number seen.
5- Re-ZERO dial indicator on this point.
6- Spin the crank 180*.
7- The number indicated is the TOTAL runout. Divide the number in half.
8- This is the distance the bellhousing has to move TOWARD THE MOST POSITIVE NUMBER.
9- Remove original type dowels and replace with offset dowels, again, moving the bell toward the MOST POSITIVE NUMBER!
10- Recheck to make sure you got it right... YOU ARE DONE!!

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Greg's modified dial indicator should make it much easier. For me, this is what helped me get it right: A write up of the above SST video.
1- Set-up gauge.
2- Pick any point as your ZERO.
3- Spin the crank 360* to make sure it comes back to your ZERO. Ignore numbers on this trip.
4- Turn the crank 360* and mark the MOST POSITIVE number seen.
5- Re-ZERO dial indicator on this point.
6- Spin the crank 180*.
7- The number indicated is the TOTAL runout. Divide the number in half.
8- This is the distance the bellhousing has to move TOWARD THE MOST POSITIVE NUMBER.
9- Remove original type dowels and replace with offset dowels, again, moving the bell toward the MOST POSITIVE NUMBER!
10- Recheck to make sure you got it right... YOU ARE DONE!!

Since your in Lincoln same town as CoronetDarter why not drive over & do it..... The fact that .040 offset dowels don't exist kinda adds to the challenge....

They've run the tests, they've repeated the test & got the same result, they've ran additional tests which prove the problem is with the bellhousing.....

Either step up & show us what ya got or with all due respect STFU...

 

[coloradodave]

Well now, 1Wild R/T, thanks for the welcome back to this site. Yes, Rich and I are friends and we do live in the same town. Very observant of you. However, Rich's car is at Greg's house in Granite Bay. I'll leave it to you to figure out where that is. I was pointing out how I did my conversion and what worked for me. In trying to help my friend I figured the more ideas the better, but I guess you don't agree with that. To each his own.
BTW, whenever I see "with all due respect" and then something like you wrote, I figure it's not worth trying to have a conversation. At 78 years old, I am particular about who I want to deal with, and brother, you are not on the list...

 

[Kern Dog]

Rich must be busy so I'll make an update.
We put the SST bell on my spare engine and measured it using my dial indicator. It came up with the runout in the same direction as we were seeing with the 440 in his Coronet. I measured a number of .0445 TIR, that means to use this bell on this engine, I'd need to move it .02225 toward the ZERO/High side. Rich came over and looked everything over, then cleaned the back of the block again, mounted up the SST bell and secured it with all the mounting bolts and then rigged up HIS dial indicator since he has been using his own on his car the whole time.
His numbers were.....

 

[Kern Dog]

.....The SAME as mine!
Yes, using two different engine blocks and different dial indicators, we came to the exact same number. .0445.
Rich ordered the .021 dowels today. Remember, the bell has to shift .0225 to be in perfect alignment BUT only has to move .0175 to be within the .005 limit.
Yeah, it was a good day.

 

[Kern Dog]

Since your in Lincoln same town as CoronetDarter why not drive over & do it..... The fact that .040 offset dowels don't exist kinda adds to the challenge....

They've run the tests, they've repeated the test & got the same result, they've ran additional tests which prove the problem is with the bellhousing.....

Either step up & show us what ya got or with all due respect STFU...

The total runout was at .082 before Rich pulled the bell and found some deformation on the lower right side of the mounting edge of the block. He took a file to flatten out the nibs and afterwards recorded a .048.
Rich has been the one doing the majority of the work. I've mainly been spinning the crank while he registers the readings. I figure that it is HIS car so he should be the one taking charge. I've been there to make suggestions and give advice where needed. I have only done this twice before so it isn't as if I know all the short cuts and tricks.

 

[watermelon]

“STFU”


great update Kern!

yep … get it within the spec window and move on. resist the temptation to upgrade other things along the way.





watermelon

 

[CoronetDarter]

Greg's modified dial indicator should make it much easier. For me, this is what helped me get it right: A write up of the above SST video.
1- Set-up gauge.
2- Pick any point as your ZERO.
3- Spin the crank 360* to make sure it comes back to your ZERO. Ignore numbers on this trip.
4- Turn the crank 360* and mark the MOST POSITIVE number seen.
5- Re-ZERO dial indicator on this point.
6- Spin the crank 180*.
7- The number indicated is the TOTAL runout. Divide the number in half.
8- This is the distance the bellhousing has to move TOWARD THE MOST POSITIVE NUMBER.
9- Remove original type dowels and replace with offset dowels, again, moving the bell toward the MOST POSITIVE NUMBER!
10- Recheck to make sure you got it right... YOU ARE DONE!!

That's how we've been measuring, and through a comedy of errors on my part the TIR has been way out of spec, or we haven't been able to duplicate readings from one day to the next.

 

[CoronetDarter]

The total runout was at .082 before Rich pulled the bell and found some deformation on the lower right side of the mounting edge of the block. He took a file to flatten out the nibs and afterwards recorded a .048.
Rich has been the one doing the majority of the work. I've mainly been spinning the crank while he registers the readings. I figure that it is HIS car so he should be the one taking charge. I've been there to make suggestions and give advice where needed. I have only done this twice before so it isn't as if I know all the short cuts and tricks.

The initial out of spec runout had to be caused by the imperfections in the block mating surfaces. I should have taken a harder look, would've saved us a 1/2 day. The second set of readings got us to the .048" TIR / .024" runout, which is correctible. Second faux pas was me not noticing that a dowel pin was missing. When reinstalling the SST bell, I was so fixated on aligning with the homemade dowel I completely missed it. So now the TIR was back up to .056" or something, again way out of spec.
Greg found the pin later Saturday night after I had left and he started experimenting with his shop 440.
Yesterday we installed the SST bell to Greg's engine, and using his indicator, recorded a TIR of .0445" / .022". Next we reinstalled the bell to the Coronet, used my indicator, and measured .045" / .0225. It can be corrected with a .021" offset dowel. Success!
This was my first experience using a dial indicator, and easily the first time I've had to measure accuracy down to .005". Looking back over the past week, the overlooks and mistakes are painfully obvious and won't be repeated. I'll get another chance when the .021's show up.

Greg's engine, SST bell

Close up

SST bell back on the Coronet

Close up

Despite the breakthrough, I'm still not thrilled about the bell bore being so far off. I talked to an SST tech again today and he said it doesn't matter where you start, as long as you're able to bring the runout within .005" it's good. (Of course, what else is he going to say about his product?).

 

[CoronetDarter]

Since your in Lincoln same town as CoronetDarter why not drive over & do it..... The fact that .040 offset dowels don't exist kinda adds to the challenge....

They've run the tests, they've repeated the test & got the same result, they've ran additional tests which prove the problem is with the bellhousing.....

Either step up & show us what ya got or with all due respect STFU...

In the past, Dave has come by my house to help me on the Coronet, so he's not a 'all talk, no action' guy.

 

[CoronetDarter]

Rich must be busy so I'll make an update.

His numbers were.....

Ah yes, to be retired. Busy time of year for me so I'm late with my updates. Besides keeping everyone updated, Greg has been instrumental in helping me get this project to the finish line. Added bonus, he's got some of the friendliest dogs I've ever met. I think they like me.

 

[Kern Dog]

Meet Dynamo....

Here is Pebbles...

 

[1 Wild R/T]

In the past, Dave has come by my house to help me on the Coronet, so he's not a 'all talk, no action' guy.

Maybe I was outta line but there's a lot of posts suggesting how easy this is & in theory I agree but the reality is sometimes it doesn't work that way...

In post 179 Dave states he doesn't see how paint or burrs on the block surface are gonna effect runout... Obviously it does & maybe he needs to think a little harder...

 

[Kern Dog]

Resist the temptation to upgrade other things along the way.


watermelon

I think Rich looks forward to driving the car as soon as possible. There are some things that had to be done now.
One is rerouting the starter cable.
Both of us have the battery in the trunk with a fat 1/0 cable running through the firewall. Both of us had automatic transmissions and used the oval blockoff plug in the firewall to run some wires through to the engine bay. This blockoff plug.....

....now serves as the hole for the clutch linkage pushrod. These wires had to go through the firewall somewhere else.

I rerouted my 1/0 cable here:

I'll let Rich explain where he ran his.