Tremec TKX 5-Speed Conversion

[CoronetDarter]

Do you have a dowel pin remover?

I don't. But I have vice grips.

 

[Kern Dog]

Do you have a dowel pin remover?

Some are the slide hammer type, but I have the type uses a threaded rod to tighten the tool to the pin.
View attachment 1537397

I can send you the parts you need (to minimize shipping) if you need, but it might take some time to get them. Better if you can borrow or rent some if you don't have the right tool.

<Edit>
I found some old pictures showing it's use in case this is useful for anyone.

Get the right size first and slip it on the pin
View attachment 1537398

Then insert the tightening sleeve and the threaded shaft.
View attachment 1537401

Put the pulling sleeve over the assembly and tighten...
View attachment 1537399

...and the pin comes out.
View attachment 1537400

The offset dowel can be turned (wrench) and tightened using the Allen set screw
View attachment 1537402

Hope this is helpful for any members who may not be familiar.

This^^^^
Or weld a lug nut onto the dowel and crank it out.
That is what I did.

 

[hunt2elk]

Do you have a dowel pin remover?

Some are the slide hammer type, but I have the type uses a threaded rod to tighten the tool to the pin.
View attachment 1537397

I can send you the parts you need (to minimize shipping) if you need, but it might take some time to get them. Better if you can borrow or rent some if you don't have the right tool.

<Edit>
I found some old pictures showing it's use in case this is useful for anyone.

Get the right size first and slip it on the pin
View attachment 1537398

Then insert the tightening sleeve and the threaded shaft.
View attachment 1537401

Put the pulling sleeve over the assembly and tighten...
View attachment 1537399

...and the pin comes out.
View attachment 1537400

The offset dowel can be turned (wrench) and tightened using the Allen set screw
View attachment 1537402

Hope this is helpful for any members who may not be familiar.

See, if you were my neighbor, I would be asking to borrow that cool tool. Never saw one of those before.

 

[ckessel]

This thread, like Gregs, is a prime example that updates like transmissions are not for the faint of heart. I can't even begin to imagine the tech calls they must field daily. All the more reason to have more thorough and better instructions. Could you imagine how something like this job could be to do for someone who has a hard time changing oil?

 

[CoronetDarter]

See, if you were my neighbor, I would be asking to borrow that cool tool. Never saw one of those before.

Notice how Hawk has all the cool tools. It's like he knows an engine builder or something.

 

[HawkRod]

I don't. But I have vice grips.

Or weld a lug nut onto the dowel and crank it out.
That is what I did.

Absolutely those methods usually work too! You just can't use them again (although it is doubtful you will need them again).

Notice how Hawk has all the cool tools. It's like he knows an engine builder or something.

Haha. I wish I had all the cool tools! But it is nice to be able to (temporarily) steal all the cool, expensive, specialty tools I need!

 

[CoronetDarter]

This thread, like Gregs, is a prime example that updates like transmissions are not for the faint of heart. I can't even begin to imagine the tech calls they must field daily. All the more reason to have more thorough and better instructions. Could you imagine how something like this job could be to do for someone who has a hard time changing oil?

Very true. This should not be the next project for someone who just learned to change their spark plugs. However it's this site that gives shade-tree hobbyists like myself the confidence (maybe misguided) to tackle these harder projects. And the good members here that will weigh in and help out if and when you get into a bind.

 

[ckessel]

There was a thread over on Moparts somewhat recently that was pretty informative on clutch issues with a 383 Dart. Good thing the gent who was doing the final investigation/fix rocked the house. There was this massive stack up of small problems like BH runout[ like yours Rich] added with a funky bell unit mixed in with paint on the block/dowels mixed in with poorly cut flywheel mixed in with crank flange having problems mixed in with multiple other issues. Couldn't find it to attach here of course but another example where some problems really test a persons skill/patience level.

 

[Kern Dog]

If cleaning the back of the block makes no difference to the runout numbers, the fix for that is still undetermined. I don't have the ability to make offset dowels. Being off by .080 means the bell has to shift .040 to be centered. Look at the .035 gap in a spark plug. The offset is bigger than that. This leaves 2 options: Custom dowels or the vendor sending out another bellhousing. For the money these kits cost, I'd sure expect SST to back up their products and send out another BH. The custom dowels with that much offset would require ALL the mounting holes in the bell to be ovalled out. This is obviously not ideal.
If the OP was piecing together a swap from a variety of different suppliers, he should expect to run into some conflicts since all the different vendors may not communicate to each other to make the parts work together. This setup all came from one supplier. They should know what fits, what doesn't.
When I swapped the Tremec in my car, I had paint on the block.

When I rebuilt the engine last year, I had paint on the block, even thicker paint since I sprayed it with a paint gun using single stage catalyzed urethane enamel.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

Paint on the machined block surface will cause runout on the face of the bell housing but your not measuring the runout on the face.... Your measuring runout on the bore... I seriously doubt there's enough paint on the block surface to effect the bore runout much....

Distance effects the error... So the fact the bell housing bolts to the block probably 7" from the bore your sweeping means a minor misalignment is amplified...

But to counter that effect if the bolts mounting the bellhousing were on a 3" circle a .010 variation at 7" would probably be .070.... But the bellhousing bolt circle is around 15-16" so a .010 variation of the surface would probably only register .004-.006 on the bore...

While looking at runout do they have you sweep the trans mounting surface? The factory manual does... Just move the dial indicator stem from the bore to the mounting face...

Another thing to check is runout of the flywheel face...

And BTW if they tell you they've never seen this before I refer you back to post 25...

 

[ckessel]

In that Dart post I mentioned, one of the posters talked about his fun dialing in a Quik Time unit. That thing was waaay off. He sourced either an older Lakewood or a stocker, can't remember which, and no more dial in problem. Like Randy mentioned, it's not the first time a company has heard about issues. The OE's do the same. Saw and experienced that at the dealers.
I just found the thread, will post it in the engine/trans section so as not to hijack this one.

 

[CoronetDarter]

Paint on the machined block surface will cause runout on the face of the bell housing but your not measuring the runout on the face.... Your measuring runout on the bore... I seriously doubt there's enough paint on the block surface to effect the bore runout much....

Yeah, its a long shot no doubt. But I'll clean it off, wire brush it, etc. just to remove each variable.

 

[CoronetDarter]

Paint on the machined block surface will cause runout on the face of the bell housing but your not measuring the runout on the face.... Your measuring runout on the bore... I seriously doubt there's enough paint on the block surface to effect the bore runout much....

Distance effects the error... So the fact the bell housing bolts to the block probably 7" from the bore your sweeping means a minor misalignment is amplified...
But to counter that effect if the bolts mounting the bellhousing were on a 3" circle a .010 variation at 7" would probably be .070.... But the bellhousing bolt circle is around 15-16" so a .010 variation of the surface would probably only register .004-.006 on the bore...

You mean a .010 variation in the block to bell mating surfaces? A variation of that magnitude wouldn't be caused by paint, right?

While looking at runout do they have you sweep the trans mounting surface? The factory manual does... Just move the dial indicator stem from the bore to the mounting face...

I could try that. But it would only be around a 270° sweep because the bottom is open.

Another thing to check is runout of the flywheel face...

The indicator base is attached to the center of the flywheel, between the bolts. It rotates in such a tight circle, if there was runout would it even be picked up by the indicator? And we removed the base and repositioned it when we switched dial indicators, and the high point was again at 2:00.

And BTW if they tell you they've never seen this before I refer you back to post 25...

Right.

 

[CoronetDarter]

If cleaning the back of the block makes no difference to the runout numbers, the fix for that is still undetermined. I don't have the ability to make offset dowels. Being off by .080 means the bell has to shift .040 to be centered. Look at the .035 gap in a spark plug. The offset is bigger than that. This leaves 2 options: Custom dowels or the vendor sending out another bellhousing. For the money these kits cost, I'd sure expect SST to back up their products and send out another BH. The custom dowels with that much offset would require ALL the mounting holes in the bell to be ovalled out. This is obviously not ideal.

Right. We're not making offset dowels or hogging out bolt holes to make this work. If it comes down to it, SST is shipping out another bell.
BTW, I talked to their tech again today. He's not in favor of trying to measure initial TIR with the Robb Mc offset dowels. He thinks it would be too difficult to dial in TIR starting with an offset. Instead, if we think the current dowels are an issue, they should be replaced with brand new OEM type dowels first.

If the OP was piecing together a swap from a variety of different suppliers, he should expect to run into some conflicts since all the different vendors may not communicate to each other to make the parts work together. This setup all came from one supplier. They should know what fits, what doesn't.
When I swapped the Tremec in my car, I had paint on the block.

If we can't knock the TIR down to a manageable number, then SST needs to stand behind their product. I'll ship the bell back and have them check the TIR at their shop.

 

[66 Sat]

What about this Browell tool here that Bio used?
Browell Bellhousing Runout and alignment kit. 100% reliable

If I ever finally do a manual conversion I think I'd get one as this step in the conversion is the one that worries me the most.

Maybe you could sell it after you're done?

 

[CoronetDarter]

What about this Browell tool here that Bio used?
Browell Bellhousing Runout and alignment kit. 100% reliable

If I ever finally do a manual conversion I think I'd get one as this step in the conversion is the one that worries me the most.

Maybe you could sell it after you're done?

I read the thread. The tool doesn't measure how much the BH is offset, you shine a light in the gap and make an educated guess. SST (and American Powertrain for that matter) has some pretty specific instructions on how they want the runout documented. Before investing in this tool I would talk to them first.

 

[Kern Dog]

I had a buddy set aside a big block bell housing and I may have another as well.
Trial fitting and measuring other BHs will tell us something. If by some strange chance they all show similar numbers in the same direction, that would likely indicate that the block itself is what is out of spec.
I'm just guessing here because I just don't know, but.....
What if the bellhousing and the dowel holes drilled in the back of the block are not exactly where they should be as related to crankshaft centerline?
It is just a stab in the dark but what if?
The block has a 1976 casting date. What if Chrysler wasn't as concerned with precision since they weren't fitting any manual transmissions behind 440s after 1975?

 

[66 Sat]

I read the thread. The tool doesn't measure how much the BH is offset, you shine a light in the gap and make an educated guess. SST (and American Powertrain for that matter) has some pretty specific instructions on how they want the runout documented. Before investing in this tool I would talk to them first.

I thought the tool used the light just to determine in which direction the alignment was out and which direction it needed correcting. Once it was aligned you wouldn't see any light. I could be wrong though...

 

[1 Wild R/T]

The block has a 1976 casting date. What if Chrysler wasn't as concerned with precision since they weren't fitting any manual transmissions behind 440s after 1975?

Autos need to be pretty close too...
But I do like the test you have in mind...
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You mean a .010 variation in the block to bell mating surfaces? A variation of that magnitude wouldn't be caused by paint, right?

It could be but the painter would have to drink a few Kamikazes before picking up the gun..

I could try that. But it would only be around a 270° sweep because the bottom is open.

I'm now sure where you plan to measure but I'm talking about the back face of the bellhousing where the trans mounts... Like this...

The indicator base is attached to the center of the flywheel, between the bolts. It rotates in such a tight circle, if there was runout would it even be picked up by the indicator? And we removed the base and repositioned it when we switched dial indicators, and the high point was again at 2:00.

To measure runout of the flywheel you would reposition the dial indicator so it is mounted to the block with the stem touching the clutch face of the flywheel then rotate the engine to see if the flywheel runs true or has runout.... It shouldn't..

 

[CoronetDarter]

Absolutely those methods usually work too! You just can't use them again (although it is doubtful you will need them again).


Haha. I wish I had all the cool tools! But it is nice to be able to (temporarily) steal all the cool, expensive, specialty tools I need!

On the subject of tools, Greg fabb'd a handy flywheel dowel on a moments notice. Took an extra flywheel bolt from his stash, ground down the head, cut a groove in the top for a screwdriver to back it out once the flywheel was in. Much easier to start the bolts without having to hold up the flywheel.