Tremec TKX 5-Speed Conversion

[Michael R/T]

Great thread, thank you all for posting

 

[CoronetDarter]

I've been to the roof and back and told the stories.
I still have no fear of doing the work and that is a good thing. Fear may keep you safe but it also kills the spirit of a man. I'd rather risk a bit to get stuff done than to play it safe from the couch the rest of my life.
I went back through my own Tremec installation thread to familiarize myself with some tasks that are coming. 40 page threads take awhile to get through.
Rich won't have many of the distractions that I had with my project.
He is starting with a column shift car with no console. There is no modifying the console parts and his original carpet will be reused.
No need to repaint his headers, no oil pan-valve cover-intake leaks to address, his flywheel will probably fit without machine work too.
The TKX has a rounder top that is supposed to fit without the sunroof sized hole I had to cut in mine. NO "doghouse" to cover the hole either.
For me, the two most difficult parts were the measuring of the bell housing runout and the final stuffing of the transmission into the car.
I love to learn from my past mistakes so here is what I've thought of.
If Rich wants, I'll modify the linkage rods of my dial indicator by shortening them to allow the needle to point at 90 degrees instead of this angle:

View attachment 1536528

Next, some light lube on the input shaft and the pilot bearing may help the interface. I understand Rich's kit comes with a trans yoke but not a drive shaft. Slipping the yoke onto the output shaft would allow movement of the input shaft in case the splines are butting into each other instead of meshing.

I'm open to any suggestions as I'm sure Rich is.

I watched the SST YT video on measuring TIR. They did it in 9 minutes, how hard could it be? Seriously, we'll see how it goes. If I remember Greg's thread, he did the process by himself which is infinitely harder. With one of us rotating the crank and the other viewing the indicator it should go a bit smoother.

 

[CoronetDarter]

My buddy who’s doing the TKX swap, his kit from SST didn’t include a trans joke or a driveshaft, both are extra.

I wish I can help you guys, I love working on these old cars.

Greg take it easy with that bad disk, you don’t want to permanently damage your back

All the paperwork and parts are at Greg's shop, but I don't remember ordering a yoke. I was planning on using a local driveline shop to modify the driveshaft, although Greg reminded me that the driveshaft has to be lengthened, not shortened like I was anticipating. I may winding up going back to SST for the driveshaft.

 

[1 Wild R/T]

All the paperwork and parts are at Greg's shop, but I don't remember ordering a yoke. I was planning on using a local driveline shop to modify the driveshaft, although Greg reminded me that the driveshaft has to be lengthened, not shortened like I was anticipating. I may winding up going back to SST for the driveshaft.

I tend to grab driveshafts out of C bodies... They are longer and can be cut down...

 

[Kern Dog]

Here is a copy and paste from when I had the engine and trans out of my car last year:
*********************************************************************************************************************

Two things that were really annoying with the 5 speed swap last year was measuring and correcting the bell housing runout and installing the transmission. The runout issue was not fun and it took me a long time. I was cussing, yelling, questioning everything and in a pissy mood over the whole thing. I made adjustments, tightened the bell bolts, measured, got confused, loosened the bolts, made adjustments, tightened the bell bolts, measured....It is a very tedious process....at least for me.

I wanted to check the runout again with this all apart because the block had been moved around a bit. It sat on the *** end a few times at the machine shop so I thought it was possible that the dowels might have shifted a bit. I was right. The runout was off and beyond the tolerances that Silver Sport lists in the instructions.
I understand the theory of these offset dowels and their way of adjustment. Turning them means the bell housing bore moves in an ellipse, almost like a cam lobe. If I was off center to the lower right and clocked the dowels to the upper left, it should move toward the center.
I started off today with ink marks for reference.

I was having trouble...as usual. The first time I did this procedure last year, the pilot bearing wasn't in the crank so I was able to attach the magnetic base to the hub of the crank. Now with the bearing sitting slightly outside of the hub, I had to install the flywheel and attach to that. Somehow, I was able to get more clearance around the dial than before. I still wasn't able to angle it at a true 90 degrees but my numbers were repeatable.
I made adjustments but nothing was making sense. This was a whole lot easier with the engine out though. I suspected that the paint on the dowels could be causing some trouble so I pulled the dowels and cleaned them up.

These dowels are from Robb MC (spelling ?) and they are the .014 offset style.

At this point, I was good top to bottom but needed to shift over to the left. From here, I started loosening the bell bolts and clocking the dowels as I looked at the dial indicator. Maybe I should have done this from the start. It closed the gap to the point where total runout was .003. The goal is .005 or better.
In complete honesty, I simply fumbled around and landed here. I can't take credit for being skillful at this.
*********************************************************************************************************************
I forgot that I clocked the dowels and watched the dial indicator gauge move at the same time. The dowels have 7/16" flats so a box end wrench can turn them.

 

[Mopar Hunter]

These dowels are from Robb MC (spelling ?) and they are the .014 offset style.

Do you remember what offset you used on your Charger?

 

[HawkRod]

Greg and Rich:

I needed the offset dowels as well. I ordered two sets (they adjust by differing amounts) and I now forget which ones I used. The key for me was to make sure I had a stable base to connect the magnetic clamp to so my gauge would not move. I suggest spending some time on this. I slapped mine on at first and then suffered the consequences of non-repeatable numbers. Once I had the base stable, I got repeatable numbers and was able to fairly quickly adjust the dowels to get everything in spec.

Good luck guys!!!

 

[Kern Dog]

Do you remember what offset you used on your Charger?

That post I made showed the engine and transmission from my car. .014.

I first bought the .007 before I started the whole project but found that I needed more offset to align the bell.

This whole process is tedious and frustrating, almost like putting headers in a Mopar for the first time. Maybe it gets easier with experience but I haven't done it enough times to know the short cuts.

 

[hunt2elk]

This whole process is tedious and frustrating, almost like putting headers in a Mopar for the first time. Maybe it gets easier with experience but I haven't done it enough times to know the short cuts.

Lol, there aren't any shortcuts. It is just a boring, time consuming deal to get it dialed in.

 

[Kern Dog]

I'm going a bit off topic here but I'm curious if others are the same as me with this.....
I often embark on some new project where I have either limited or NO experience and wonder if the struggles that I have are due to my lack of familiarity or if the process is difficult for everyone that does it.
I've had inconsistent results from welding, painting, ignition systems and other non automotive related tasks that I'm not well trained. I wish I had a neighbor like @1 Wild R/T to guide me through the learning process.
There are so many things that I could learn from guys like him.

 

[hunt2elk]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you. There are several members on this site that I wish were my neighbors.

 

[CoronetDarter]

I wasn't able to post yesterday, but Greg's leading up to our frustrating day yesterday.
Maybe because he's done this before, or because its not his car, but he was able to contain himself much better than I did!
Yesterday was TIR measurement day, and surprise! It didn't turn out like SST's 9 minute YT vid.
We used my base and indicator that I just purchased. The base articulated more fully than the one Greg used during his install. As Hawk mentioned in his post, having a sturdy surface to attach the magnetic base can't be overstated. We originally attached the base to the end of the crankshaft, no flywheel installed. But we couldn't get repeatable 0.00" measurements on the initial 360° sweep.
After futzing around for a while, we pulled the bell and installed the flywheel, and bolted on the bell. The extra meat around the center of the flywheel solved the issue. We were able to perform repeatable 0.00", 360° sweeps. Surprisingly, and me not understanding the geometry, the base's articulating arms and the dial indicator lined up better with the flywheel in place.
Picking a random starting point (close to 6:00 on the register), Greg rotated the crank while I watched for the high spot. The high spot hit at about 2:00 and was .082"! Not -.018". Greg continued rotating until the indicator plunger was 180° from the high spot, and the indicator dropped back down to 0.00". We had to have done something wrong. But we did another sweep and repeated the .082" TIR. Next, we installed Greg's indicator onto the base and I rotated the crank while Greg measured, and this time it measured .079" and -.001"; almost an exact match. That's where the yelling and cursing comes in.

 

[CoronetDarter]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat as you. There are several members on this site that I wish were my neighbors.

We all need to agree upon a place and start a neighborhood!

 

[CoronetDarter]

I talked to a SST tech this morning. He first wants me to verify the mating surface of the block is thoroughly clean. Even a coat of paint can significantly alter the measurements.
I did clean the surface yesterday with brake cleaner and rag, but maybe it wasn't enough. The block was painted during the rebuild and maybe the paint is uneven on the mating surface.
Another thought is the dowel pins that are in the block. Greg had noticed after the auto was pulled that the dowel pins weren't tapered at the ends like OEM. They're cylindrical with the same diameter through the entire length. The 440 is not the original block, maybe not even the original tranny, so possibly the dowels were replaced with aftermarket? The dowels could be off .080".

 

[CoronetDarter]

Greg and Rich:

I needed the offset dowels as well. I ordered two sets (they adjust by differing amounts) and I now forget which ones I used. The key for me was to make sure I had a stable base to connect the magnetic clamp to so my gauge would not move. I suggest spending some time on this. I slapped mine on at first and then suffered the consequences of non-repeatable numbers. Once I had the base stable, I got repeatable numbers and was able to fairly quickly adjust the dowels to get everything in spec.

View attachment 1537197

Good luck guys!!!

Yes! A stable surface to mount the base is Job 1. Your photo is very close to our final setup. We spent a lot of time trying the align the indicator so it would land in the center of the register, but the circumference is too small so it wound up off center like yours. The key is to pre-load the plunger so when the indicator rotates, the top of the plunger doesn't make contact with the surface.

 

[HawkRod]

Picking a random starting point (close to 6:00 on the register), Greg rotated the crank while I watched for the high spot. The high spot hit at about 2:00 and was .082"! Not -.018". Greg continued rotating until the indicator plunger was 180° from the high spot, and the indicator dropped back down to 0.00". We had to have done something wrong. But we did another sweep and repeated the .082" TIR. Next, we installed Greg's indicator onto the base and I rotated the crank while Greg measured, and this time it measured .079" and -.001"; almost an exact match. That's where the yelling and cursing comes in.

I talked to a SST tech this morning. He first wants me to verify the mating surface of the block is thoroughly clean. Even a coat of paint can significantly alter the measurements.
I did clean the surface yesterday with brake cleaner and rag, but maybe it wasn't enough. The block was painted during the rebuild and maybe the paint is uneven on the mating surface.

I lightly sanded my block to make sure the mounting surface had no paint on it. However, I can't imagine uneven paint causing a .082" error!

Another thought is the dowel pins that are in the block. Greg had noticed after the auto was pulled that the dowel pins weren't tapered at the ends like OEM. They're cylindrical with the same diameter through the entire length. The 440 is not the original block, maybe not even the original tranny, so possibly the dowels were replaced with aftermarket? The dowels could be off .080".

So dumb question here, and forgive me if I missed, or misinterpreted something: You talk about the dowel pins in the block. But they need to come out in order to put the offset dowels in.
Was the .082" measurement before you put the offset dowels in (i.e. the original dowel pins)?
If so, I would pull the old dowels, clean up the mating surface, and then put the smaller offset dowels in. Throw them in "wherever", perhaps with them somewhat towards where your large error was. Then remeasure and see what you get. Best to start with a fresh clean dowel you can readily adjust and you know was not put in cocked, etc.

 

[CoronetDarter]

My dial indicator has a 2" display face; Greg's indicator is about the same size. That looks to be the standard size, but if you can find an indicator with a smaller face it would make measuring easier.

 

[CoronetDarter]

I lightly sanded my block to make sure the mounting surface had no paint on it. However, I can't imagine uneven paint causing a .082" error!



So dumb question here, and forgive me if I missed, or misinterpreted something: You talk about the dowel pins in the block. But they need to come out in order to put the offset dowels in.
Was the .082" measurement before you put the offset dowels in (i.e. the original dowel pins)?
If so, I would pull the old dowels, clean up the mating surface, and then put the smaller offset dowels in. Throw them in "wherever", perhaps with them somewhat towards where your large error was. Then remeasure and see what you get. Best to start with a fresh clean dowel you can readily adjust and you know was not put in cocked, etc.

I'll prep the block more thoroughly before we remeasure.

The measurement was with the original dowels in place. I was just about to post a question about removing the dowels. I have the Robb Mc .007 and .014 sets. I was planning on using one set and returning the unused set for a refund, but I'll have to roll the dice and pick one and hope that pulls the bell in spec.

 

[CoronetDarter]

Lol, there aren't any shortcuts. It is just a boring, time consuming deal to get it dialed in.

Time consuming yes. Not boring. It's been a frustrating, anxiety-inducing, hair-pulling, foot-stomping process. But not boring.

 

[HawkRod]

I was just about to post a question about removing the dowels.

Do you have a dowel pin remover?

Some are the slide hammer type, but I have the type uses a threaded rod to tighten the tool to the pin.

I can send you the parts you need (to minimize shipping) if you need, but it might take some time to get them. Better if you can borrow or rent some if you don't have the right tool.

<Edit>
I found some old pictures showing it's use in case this is useful for anyone.

Get the right size first and slip it on the pin

Then insert the tightening sleeve and the threaded shaft.

Put the pulling sleeve over the assembly and tighten...

...and the pin comes out.

The offset dowel can be turned (wrench) and tightened using the Allen set screw

Hope this is helpful for any members who may not be familiar.