miller
Well-Known Member
I'm real surprised it got any oil. Oil in the pan doesn't sit as high as the crank weights! On that, you flat lucked out.
Water in all the cylinders?
- Thread starter Moparfiend
- Start date
Well I don’t think I lucked out as it ran for about one minute fir me lol before ot hydrolocked lol. Did these 318’s use any windage tray’s?
Garys1969RR
Well-Known Member
Put the crank bolt in, and rotate it with a torque wrench, let us know how much torque it is taking to rotate the motor. My new 451 took about 55 ft lbs to rotate, but I've heard of as little as 27 is possible. This is measured WITHOUT the valve train or spark plugs installed.
Steve Garner
Well-Known Member
This is a text book example of why you don't start pulling things apart without first doing your homework. You should be about 90% certain where your problem is before you pull it apart. Very difficult to find things from a visual.
This is how we would do it in the trade. When it locked up we would have pulled all 8 plugs and turned it over by hand to see which, if any, cyl was full of what. Once you had confirmed it was a hydro lock, identified which cyl it was, and what the composition of the fluid was, you remove the rockers from that cyl. If it was anti-freeze you would remove the rad cap and install a shop air hose adapter into the spark plug hole and pressure it up. Don't lean over the open rad. Bubbling in the rad, we now know what cyl and that we are looking for a crack in the block or head, or a gasket issue, all at that cyl. If it was straight water, look for a vacuum take off on that runner of the manifold and follow it back. Could it have ingested water from there? Is it fuel? Oil? Windshield washer a/f (as in someone mistook a windshield washer hose for a vacuum hose)?
There was coolant in all those cyls because you didn't drain the block before removing the heads. That's a for certain. I've seen it so often I couldn't count them. It would be nearly impossible to load all cyls with antifreeze simultaneously. The first one to fill stops everything.
So now what? You will have to treat this engine as if it were a complete unknown. The cyl heads will have to be pressure tested and checked for flat. You don't shave the heads without checking them first. You want to find your problem, not rebuild everything that might have caused it.
If your machine shop has the ability to pressure test the block, that should be done too. In most cases a crack in the block is visible to the naked eye though. You don't care about the deck height. It can be 1/4" different from corner to corner and it won't leak if the deck is flat, albeit tilted. You check a deck and cyl head surfaces with a machinist's straight edge and a feeler gauge.
If you are confident that this thing hydro'd, every rod will have to be checked for straightness because you have no way of knowing which one stopped the engine.
From the pictures, IMHO, that engine has very few miles on it. Take a wire wheel on a drill and clean the carbon off the upper portion of the cyls. Run your finger across the end of travel on the cyl wall. I'm going to bet you can barely feel any ridge at all. It appears that the cross hatch is still visible in the ring travel area.
My guess? You won't find anything wrong with this engine. If it hydro'd I suspect it inhaled something from an external source. But you still have to go through all this now.
This is how we would do it in the trade. When it locked up we would have pulled all 8 plugs and turned it over by hand to see which, if any, cyl was full of what. Once you had confirmed it was a hydro lock, identified which cyl it was, and what the composition of the fluid was, you remove the rockers from that cyl. If it was anti-freeze you would remove the rad cap and install a shop air hose adapter into the spark plug hole and pressure it up. Don't lean over the open rad. Bubbling in the rad, we now know what cyl and that we are looking for a crack in the block or head, or a gasket issue, all at that cyl. If it was straight water, look for a vacuum take off on that runner of the manifold and follow it back. Could it have ingested water from there? Is it fuel? Oil? Windshield washer a/f (as in someone mistook a windshield washer hose for a vacuum hose)?
There was coolant in all those cyls because you didn't drain the block before removing the heads. That's a for certain. I've seen it so often I couldn't count them. It would be nearly impossible to load all cyls with antifreeze simultaneously. The first one to fill stops everything.
So now what? You will have to treat this engine as if it were a complete unknown. The cyl heads will have to be pressure tested and checked for flat. You don't shave the heads without checking them first. You want to find your problem, not rebuild everything that might have caused it.
If your machine shop has the ability to pressure test the block, that should be done too. In most cases a crack in the block is visible to the naked eye though. You don't care about the deck height. It can be 1/4" different from corner to corner and it won't leak if the deck is flat, albeit tilted. You check a deck and cyl head surfaces with a machinist's straight edge and a feeler gauge.
If you are confident that this thing hydro'd, every rod will have to be checked for straightness because you have no way of knowing which one stopped the engine.
From the pictures, IMHO, that engine has very few miles on it. Take a wire wheel on a drill and clean the carbon off the upper portion of the cyls. Run your finger across the end of travel on the cyl wall. I'm going to bet you can barely feel any ridge at all. It appears that the cross hatch is still visible in the ring travel area.
My guess? You won't find anything wrong with this engine. If it hydro'd I suspect it inhaled something from an external source. But you still have to go through all this now.
miller
Well-Known Member
Considering how the pick-up tube was installed, there's a good chance it could be taken as a bad build.
Agree...the entire engine should be taken down, everything, and start as a new rebuild.
Agree...the entire engine should be taken down, everything, and start as a new rebuild.
Hi Steve thanks for commenting above. The very first thing I did do was check by pulling all the spark plugs off. There were 2 to 3 plugs that were wet number eight number six number five and number three if I recall correctly. At that point I looked at the intake and there was water in the intake. Your post would’ve been very helpful before I took the motor out I agree probably want a little too fast on this but that’s my inexperience showing. It for sure is coolant mixed with oil. Not fuel and not wiper fluid as I dont have a wiper fluid bottle yet. What do tou mean by “external source”?
BTW the piston to deck was 0.067 -/+ .002 after I cleaned the top of the piston and deck as there was a corbon lip. On all 4 corners that is...
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Ron ... you're probably a ways off from needing a degree wheel but I have one you can borrow.
Garys1969RR
Well-Known Member
For water to get into ALL the cylinders, about the only way that could happen is coming in from the intake manifold while it's turning over.
I think a lot of what I have read and seen has convinced me that I did NOT develop water in ALL the cylinders. I DID have water on several cylinders on each side of the block as indicated by wet plugs after inspection.
I did see failures on both head gaskets that could explain the water on BOTH sides. I am however not convinced that I did not cause the gasket damage as it is possible on at least one side...
I did see failures on both head gaskets that could explain the water on BOTH sides. I am however not convinced that I did not cause the gasket damage as it is possible on at least one side...
Garys1969RR
Well-Known Member
Oh My! You definitely have some failed head gaskets there. Looks like they have been sitting in water for about 40 years! I imagine you had water going into a few cylinders, and that locked the motor. Then when you pulled the heads, the extra water ran in there. I always had that happen to me, too. Although I drained the radiator, and pulled the bottom hose, there was water left in the water jackets. Now I raise the back end, and lower the front of the car, so all the water runs out of the lower radiator hose. I did this the last time before I pulled a set of heads off a 440,and there was hardly any water. The few drops that came out were easily wiped up with a clean rag.
SublimeSixpack
Well-Known Member
That's why I remove the block drain plugs. There's more coolant in the block (and heads) then most people would think after draining the radiator.
Thank you!
My drain plugs are more than just clogged. They look like they are completely blocked off. I tried to scrape, and even chistle out both sides but it looks like a solit metal plug. Also this engine has been out before as the motor mounts were made in Korea and one side used nuts as shims!
With unknown history you could have warped heads from overheating or some real old a/f that didn’t do what is was intended. I’m sure water seeped down past piston ring gap to get into oil.
SublimeSixpack
Well-Known Member
Yes the openings sometimes crust over! You should see what comes out of some blocks when replacing rusted/seeping freeze plugs! (I'll include a photo). Your mounts (pads) are probably Anchor Brand. It appears that several things were mickey-moused on your car by a previous owner or backyard mechanic friend.
Steve Garner
Well-Known Member
Wet spark plugs are not an indicator for hydro lock, they are an indicator of wet spark plugs. In order for the liquid to lock it up it has to completely fill the combustion chamber in the head, about an ounce. That's why you turn the engine over and look at how much came out of what cyl. Those head gaskets look more like they were just damaged pulling them off the block or head. The fire ring in the gasket is still intact.
If you saw liquid in the intake then it's not a failed head gasket or a cracked head. Coolant won't flow uphill. I can't envision the range of possibilities, but something like someone dumping liquid down the carb or a brake booster full of brake fluid making it into the intake through the vacuum hose (external source).
Not sure what you're hoping to conclude from the dial gauge readings. Really doesn't tell you much of anything. Unless you know that the rods and pistons are absolutely identical between the cyls you won't know if the deck is square to the crank. However, even knowing whether the deck is square to the crank or not won't have any bearing on the issue at hand.
If you saw liquid in the intake then it's not a failed head gasket or a cracked head. Coolant won't flow uphill. I can't envision the range of possibilities, but something like someone dumping liquid down the carb or a brake booster full of brake fluid making it into the intake through the vacuum hose (external source).
Not sure what you're hoping to conclude from the dial gauge readings. Really doesn't tell you much of anything. Unless you know that the rods and pistons are absolutely identical between the cyls you won't know if the deck is square to the crank. However, even knowing whether the deck is square to the crank or not won't have any bearing on the issue at hand.
Hi Steve thanks for the info! I used the disl indicator to finde TDC for each piston then took a vernier to measure depth. I understand what you are saying about the swuareness of the block but some folkes had asked. At this point I agree I am not going to be able to find the issue but its a darn strange thing......the plugs I noticed being wet were wet with coolant which is the only liquid Ican think of plus I know what coolant feels and smells like.
Ron ... here's an affordable block to start with and it's not too far away and the price seems good.
https://offerup.com/item/detail/15762549/?ref=Search
https://offerup.com/item/detail/15762549/?ref=Search
IQ52
Well-Known Member
I had an engine once that had a cracked exhaust port. I had coolant in all eight cylinders and the intake manifold from #7 exhaust port being cracked. Guy I know had a 1/4" nut fall into his carburetor and it visited six cylinders before it spit out the exhaust pipe. A water leak anywhere in an engine can visit the entire engine.
Steve Garner
Well-Known Member
Yes, a cooling system, especially if pressured up when the engine is shut off, will fill everything with the engine not running. And it would have to fill the cyl with the crack until it overflowed that cyl and started to fill the intake. And the exhaust valve on the cracked cyl would have to be closed Unless the exhaust ran higher than the intake as in an upswept header).
However we are talking about this happening while the engine is running. First off, when running the exhaust valve will be opening and any coolant in the cyl will be pushed that way. With all the air and fuel rushing down the intake into the cyls keeping it running somehow coolant was moving in the opposite direction? Held a journeyman's ticket for 40 years now and can't say I've ever seen that happen.
Hardware is different. It can bounce around.
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