440 Valvetrain Issues.....Questions
- Thread starter threewood
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miller
Well-Known Member
Correct...#4 cam bearing.
Dumb ?. Keeper groove in the valve stem. Are all of them cut with a bevel on the bottom side? Doesn't look right, unless something new.
IQ52
Well-Known Member
Three things that I see after a quick look at the thread.
Once I get into the 400# range, I'm for sure a 10 degree retainer and lock man.
The present 7 degree locks appear to be the cheaper stamped locks and not the good machined ones.
It does not appear to be a well designed spring for that camshaft. If the springs are set up at 1.875 installed height, they have way too much distance between your maximum lift and coil bind. While running, the spring is going to look like Elaine trying to dance on 'Seinfeld'. It will not be stable.
Once I get into the 400# range, I'm for sure a 10 degree retainer and lock man.
The present 7 degree locks appear to be the cheaper stamped locks and not the good machined ones.
It does not appear to be a well designed spring for that camshaft. If the springs are set up at 1.875 installed height, they have way too much distance between your maximum lift and coil bind. While running, the spring is going to look like Elaine trying to dance on 'Seinfeld'. It will not be stable.
Glenwood
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That's a scary comparison to her so called dance technique.
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lewtot184
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smoked push rods could be geometry issues. there were/are 3 different adjusters. the one for A engines and slant 6's with the interference thread, second is the one with the slot for a screw driver and jam nut, third is the one commonly used today which is longer than the other two. the longer adjuster has the ball about .100" extended vs the screw driver head adjuster (this adjuster is the one referred to in the engine manuals when threads showing are discussed). this puts the ball too far out if any threads are showing (the .100" is equal to about 2 1/2 threads showing) which is too much. add some threads showing and there can be a problem. no threads showing is what I shoot for.
Glenwood
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I read older posts about this from you and adjusted my pushrod order.
For fun, I also set up a dial indicator last night to see how my new crane rocker adjuster threads increase the distance to the adjuster tip. Not precise but a full turn is approx .040". For interest sake here are a couple of pics.
For fun, I also set up a dial indicator last night to see how my new crane rocker adjuster threads increase the distance to the adjuster tip. Not precise but a full turn is approx .040". For interest sake here are a couple of pics.
Yes they are all the same.
10 degree hardware is ordered. The 7 degree locks are from Hughes and claim to be machined...from their website:
HUG 1322
VALVE LOCK 11/32" 1-GROOVE 7° MACHINED
7º CASE HARDENED MACHINED STEEL (SET OF 16 PAIR)
What spring would you recommend? So the coil bind height should be close to max lift?
Here are a couple of pictures of my adjuster, hex head with lock nut. Distance below the rocker is .442" to ball tip and I set these up with 2-3 threads showing as I was advised...
lewtot184
Well-Known Member
too much thread showing. push rods are too short. those are the long adjusters. that's close to 4-5 threads showing using the slotted head adjusters that those rockers used to come with. when I went to edelbrock heads I couldn't find a shelf push rod to fit. IIRC I had to order push rods that were .170" longer (that's close to 4-5 threads showing) than the shelf crane push rods I was using for the same cam. the 440 source are edelbrock clones so you may have a similar situation. another factor is if those are 1.5 rockers they'll check out around 1.6. if this is the case I would check everything again. ole' joe Sherman used to say you need to up the spring pressure 6% for every step up in ratio; might check with hugh's on that.
lewtot184
Well-Known Member
just looking at an older direct connection engine manual and it says 1 thread showing is ideal (keep in mind this is the short slotted head adjuster), 2 may be o.k., 3 shaky. keep in mind the new long type adjuster extends the ball .100" which is close to 2 1/2 threads showing. surprised you haven't snapped the ball end off.
Thanks for the informed answer. This is how i originally had them set up to order custom pushrods until I was told by two members to add a few threads...
Jackpot50
Well-Known Member
Rocker shafts weren't put in upside down were they.
Should have been able to start up and see if they were oiling.
Should have been able to start up and see if they were oiling.
lewtot184
Well-Known Member
all the "thread showing" stuff is obsolete and probably has been for 20yrs. what I think might be ideal is the adjuster for a ball&ball push rod. as long as the oil groove in the adjuster is lined up with the oil feed hole a guy should be goldened. pair that up with some 270 degree radius ball push rods and forget about the threads showing crap.
There is no oil groove in the adjuster. The oil feed hole goes from the i.d., through a portion of threads, and out the adjuster side rocker arm body. The adjuster is all threaded.
lewtot184
Well-Known Member
the ball&ball adjuster has the groove. the cup and ball adjuster doesn't. I was referring to using the type of adjuster that the comp cams magnum rocker has and getting away from all the thread showing crap.
wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
Hi Threewood
some comments on your thread
some will most likely be covered by others but from the top
adjuster balls have always been a problem
1 I recommend oil through the pushrods using LA/AMC style lifters
Cups on the adjusters and ball and ball pushrods as large dia as you can fit
Ford size cups and screws
all depending on rpm and valve load
2 valve loks – yes on 10 degree-- you might consider a switch to beehives at the same time
I like dual springs too – even Isky 6006 set up for mild hyd cams
Ductile wearing at the tips
something is wrong
do dbl check the oiling but I think must be more too it than that
post 3 I've run more lift than that
I usually run lash caps half the thickness of the increase in lift over the Magnum cam for a larger wear area and to correct the geometry
get to 650 lift then +100 valves
post 6 we have a poster/ vendor here who is a specialist on MOPAR rocker arms- read his 4 tech articles
http://www.b3racingengines.com/techpages/MoparRockerArmGeometry1.asp
post 9 do check installed heights and coil bind- are the inner seats machined and other common overlooked items?
Post 13 do the whole half lift drill with those lifters and post the pics
at half lift the pushrod and adjuster should be in a straight line - often overlooked
you can't make roller rockers work correctly without spacing the shafts
do the adjusters have cups or balls
if balls Hughes should know better
post 15
you can save the rockers if Crane does not warrantee
send them to Rocker arm specialists in Redding CA for a reface
16 agree
19 remember members- hard chrome for iron or bronze bushings- case hardened for needle brgs
21 they all need to be shimmed the roller moves the tangent point half the size of the roller- that plus the increased lift
37 agree
46 agree
48 I'd rockwell check those rockers and locks
too many threads showing
49 agree
50 exactly- another overlooked gotcha
56 agree ball and ball ford size pushrod and cup adjuster
also do the midlift drill and get your rockers shimmed up b 4 ordering pushrods
some comments on your thread
some will most likely be covered by others but from the top
adjuster balls have always been a problem
1 I recommend oil through the pushrods using LA/AMC style lifters
Cups on the adjusters and ball and ball pushrods as large dia as you can fit
Ford size cups and screws
all depending on rpm and valve load
2 valve loks – yes on 10 degree-- you might consider a switch to beehives at the same time
I like dual springs too – even Isky 6006 set up for mild hyd cams
Ductile wearing at the tips
something is wrong
do dbl check the oiling but I think must be more too it than that
post 3 I've run more lift than that
I usually run lash caps half the thickness of the increase in lift over the Magnum cam for a larger wear area and to correct the geometry
get to 650 lift then +100 valves
post 6 we have a poster/ vendor here who is a specialist on MOPAR rocker arms- read his 4 tech articles
http://www.b3racingengines.com/techpages/MoparRockerArmGeometry1.asp
post 9 do check installed heights and coil bind- are the inner seats machined and other common overlooked items?
Post 13 do the whole half lift drill with those lifters and post the pics
at half lift the pushrod and adjuster should be in a straight line - often overlooked
you can't make roller rockers work correctly without spacing the shafts
do the adjusters have cups or balls
if balls Hughes should know better
post 15
you can save the rockers if Crane does not warrantee
send them to Rocker arm specialists in Redding CA for a reface
16 agree
19 remember members- hard chrome for iron or bronze bushings- case hardened for needle brgs
21 they all need to be shimmed the roller moves the tangent point half the size of the roller- that plus the increased lift
37 agree
46 agree
48 I'd rockwell check those rockers and locks
too many threads showing
49 agree
50 exactly- another overlooked gotcha
56 agree ball and ball ford size pushrod and cup adjuster
also do the midlift drill and get your rockers shimmed up b 4 ordering pushrods
Still no word back from Crane. I'll call on Monday to let them know I am still wanting the issue looked at.
For replacement parts I have so far, 1) Hughes cnc rocker arms 1.5, 2) Comp Cam 10* retainers / locks, 3) Crane 96877 dual springs.
Once I get the retainers I can measure for spring seat height for the new springs (1.800") and order the correct valve spring locators and shims. Then once the springs are set i can set up the new rockers and order new pushrods from Smith Bros.
For replacement parts I have so far, 1) Hughes cnc rocker arms 1.5, 2) Comp Cam 10* retainers / locks, 3) Crane 96877 dual springs.
Once I get the retainers I can measure for spring seat height for the new springs (1.800") and order the correct valve spring locators and shims. Then once the springs are set i can set up the new rockers and order new pushrods from Smith Bros.
New locks and retainers vs. Old locks and retainers...
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