440 Valvetrain Issues.....Questions

[wyrmrider]

looks much better- that old stuff was scary
spend a lot of time setting up the new rockers and do your homework on the spacers b4 ordering pushrods
I've not used much crane rockers as Isky is a friend of mine- We used to do Wednesday lunch with Big John and Nick Arias unfortunately lots of the old timers are gone
Isky's had a hard pad and I never wore one like yours shown
Lots of variation on roller rockers- Cranes used to be a real funky design- to be polite IDK how they are now
Trick is to set up the valve side then check to see if the pushrod side is at least reasonable- not angled too much to not quite too much instead of equal angles open and closed- and do set up the rocker balls as high as you can get them
It's pretty obvious that most vendors use a "one design fits all" rocker body which does not have the right angle for a MOPAR if that turnsout to be the case return them
The link I sent vendor could also advise- getting his shims is much easier than making your own

 

[69 GTX]

Looking at post #60, and I'm sure you know this , but I'll put it out there, make sure the locks don't touch each other. The gap is probably on the back side where I couldn't see it.

 

[threewood]

looks much better- that old stuff was scary
spend a lot of time setting up the new rockers and do your homework on the spacers b4 ordering pushrods
I've not used much crane rockers as Isky is a friend of mine- We used to do Wednesday lunch with Big John and Nick Arias unfortunately lots of the old timers are gone
Isky's had a hard pad and I never wore one like yours shown
Lots of variation on roller rockers- Cranes used to be a real funky design- to be polite IDK how they are now
Trick is to set up the valve side then check to see if the pushrod side is at least reasonable- not angled too much to not quite too much instead of equal angles open and closed- and do set up the rocker balls as high as you can get them
It's pretty obvious that most vendors use a "one design fits all" rocker body which does not have the right angle for a MOPAR if that turnsout to be the case return them
The link I sent vendor could also advise- getting his shims is much easier than making your own

Thanks. The Hughes rockers are suppose to be designed for Mopar engines. The kit comes with spacers and shims for the rocker shaft.

 

[threewood]

Looking at post #60, and I'm sure you know this , but I'll put it out there, make sure the locks don't touch each other. The gap is probably on the back side where I couldn't see it.

I'll make a note and check them all. I didn't pay attention to the gap on the one I was playing with.

 

[wyrmrider]

Congrats Hughes (again) you never get more than what you pay for and in this case you get what you pay for.
are adjusters ball or cup?
when you do the mock up chek the valve side then do the pushrod side and let me know if the pushrod and adjuster screw are close to being in a straight line at mid lift
Never going to be perfect as it changes with lift but should not be mostly one sided
have the adjuster almost all the way up when measuring for pushrods
if this is a hyd cam make sure that lifter is not collapsed

 

[bearman]

threewood what a shame you got problem. but i agree something up with either spring pressure and height. how about a mister system in the valve cover its a thought. but my issue is only two cyn that for me is the question if it was a oil problem don't you think it would be all of them. what made you check this out was the engine running different or making a noise. does the shaft have any marks on it were rocker rides. just want an idea getting my engine next week and need guide lines as what to check at certain miles it will be a street engine.

 

[threewood]

threewood what a shame you got problem. but i agree something up with either spring pressure and height. how about a mister system in the valve cover its a thought. but my issue is only two cyn that for me is the question if it was a oil problem don't you think it would be all of them. what made you check this out was the engine running different or making a noise. does the shaft have any marks on it were rocker rides. just want an idea getting my engine next week and need guide lines as what to check at certain miles it will be a street engine.

Well, it happens. Yes, just the two pushrods. The #2E rocker had some galling between the shaft and rocker. All others were is nice condition.

Engine was running fine, but a little noisy from the valve train so I popped the covers off to check lash. This is a solid flat tappet cam.

 

[threewood]

Congrats Hughes (again) you never get more than what you pay for and in this case you get what you pay for.
are adjusters ball or cup?
when you do the mock up chek the valve side then do the pushrod side and let me know if the pushrod and adjuster screw are close to being in a straight line at mid lift
Never going to be perfect as it changes with lift but should not be mostly one sided
have the adjuster almost all the way up when measuring for pushrods
if this is a hyd cam make sure that lifter is not collapsed

After seeing an actual machined lock, I know I wasted my money on the Hughes locks. The original 440Source locks looked identical in build to the Hughes pieces but were a green color as opposed to oxide. Lets hope their rockers are well made.

 

[bearman]

thanks just trying to get a feel for miles on engine when to look at what.

 

[wyrmrider]

When you said spacers did you mean the ones on the shaft or the ones you need under the shaft that the bolts go through?

 

[threewood]

When you said spacers did you mean the ones on the shaft or the ones you need under the shaft that the bolts go through?

The rocker kit has both the shaft spacers and shims to raise it up if need be.

 

[bearman]

threewood if shims needed does that tell me that the machined stands that hold the shafts all need to be looked at to make sure each stand is correct. i get it that with adjustable rockers that you can adjust to make clearance to make it correct. so with non adjustable rockers we have to install shims that get the clearance correct. do you believe this is a common problem with heads and what about the lifters to make sure the adjustment is correct the lifters need to be pre loaded somehow. or am i just over thinking this

 

[wyrmrider]

Guys
Go here
http://www.b3racingengines.com/techcorner.asp
read all four parts
then let's discuss it

Bearman
Stands will be correct for stock lifts - adjustment does not change the shaft location
incorrect shaft location gives incorrect cam/ valve motion/ instability and increased wear with stock or iron lifters- other problems with roller rockers
Stands need up and offset shims for roller rockers (start with radius of roller)
adjustment cannot be properly done till the fulcrum is in the proper location- Iron or roller rockers
you are not over thinking this
great questions

 

[khryslerkid]

I'll make a note and check them all. I didn't pay attention to the gap on the one I was playing with.

I found that on the exhaust valves the locks will touch. That let's the valve spin in the seat to eliminate carbon buildup. I chose to take a little off of the locks to create a gap so they don't spin and grip the valve stem. Your choice.

 

[bearman]

great this is what i'm talking about getting everything to a true working order i will learn a lot from this. i will reread the four steps over and over only because it takes time to put everything in order for my pea brain. but can say that headed back to machine shop with this to check and recheck matters at hand. thank you for the link will follow you and be asking all kinds of questions as i am diy kind of person.

 

[wyrmrider]

usually the ones that spin are triple grove
also watch for round vs square locks/ valves no mixe/ matchee

 

[threewood]

Question....reading up on setting the correct geometry and Hughes has a guide that shoots for max valve lift. So the arms are set up with an adjustable pushrod, dial indicator mounted to measure valve lift and pushrod is adjusted to get max valve lift. Is this a viable method to find correct pushrod length? Is measuring midlift applicable using this method?

 

[Brewzer67]

Question....reading up on setting the correct geometry and Hughes has a guide that shoots for max valve lift. So the arms are set up with an adjustable pushrod, dial indicator mounted to measure valve lift and pushrod is adjusted to get max valve lift. Is this a viable method to find correct pushrod length? Is measuring midlift applicable using this method?

If you truly want proper geometry, contact Mike at B3Racing. His kits get you set up correctly for a good price.

 

[wyrmrider]

X2 what Brewer67 says
did you guys read the link I posted
if you had you could answer the question and post better questions- but keep those questions coming
as to Hughes
Totally FKED method
think about it
to get maximum lift you would have to have maximum rocker arm ratio at max lift
does that make any sense-
can you see valve fling (you are not racing a lower stock class where we used to do this)
maxim rocker arm ratio is where the line through the trunion and the tip roller center is TANGET- right angle - to the valve stem
You do NOT want max ratio at Max lift- you are trying to reverse valve motion here not accelerate it higher
to have this at max lift you would have to LOWER the desired shaft center
Or maybe that's the way it works out if you do not use shims
You want the tangent- right angle line to be at half lift not full lift or 2/3 lift or 1/3 lift (the old "makes less ratio at high lift so it's easier on the parts" bullshit) other crutch methods- lots of tradeoffs but this is the best one

 

[threewood]

X2 what Brewer67 says
did you guys read the link I posted
if you had you could answer the question and post better questions- but keep those questions coming
as to Hughes
Totally FKED method
think about it
to get maximum lift you would have to have maximum rocker arm ratio at max lift
does that make any sense-
can you see valve fling (you are not racing a lower stock class where we used to do this)
maxim rocker arm ratio is where the line through the trunion and the tip roller center is TANGET- right angle - to the valve stem
You do NOT want max ratio at Max lift- you are trying to reverse valve motion here not accelerate it higher
to have this at max lift you would have to LOWER the desired shaft center
Or maybe that's the way it works out if you do not use shims
You want the tangent- right angle line to be at half lift not full lift or 2/3 lift or 1/3 lift (the old "makes less ratio at high lift so it's easier on the parts" bullshit) other crutch methods- lots of tradeoffs but this is the best one

I read all 4 articles from B3R and he doesn't go into how to correct the grometry specifically. I take it he uses specially machined thick shims under the rocker shafts to raise the arms up for better angles? Those are shown in the pictures on his site but he doesn't have them listed for sale anywhere. After using them did you run Into clearance issues with your valve covers?