Legal issue with VIN on a B-J car today?

[1STMP]

Did y'all hear about the '69 GTX convertible at Barrett-Jackson that got the VIN and fender tag removed on?
Apparently the state of Arizona did it at the auction?
Tom @ Rocket Resto has a video up on it:

Did y'all hear about the '69 GTX convertible at Barrett-Jackson that got the VIN and fender tag removed on?
Apparently the state of Arizona did it at the auction?
Tom @ Rocket Resto has a video up on it:

After watching the vid it's evident why
the LEO's pulled the tags, and there's
probably an on-going investigation into
this cars' backround.
It will take some time as LEO's will
follow the paper trail of repairs and
changes of ownership.
It is a no no to remove, reposition,
reattach a vin tag.
(a dead give away for vin tampering).
Though the numbers may match they
still don't like it when that tag is
messed with.
If this car was wrecked (and totalled
by an insurance company), that
just exaserbates the problems.
they'll run the vins thru NCIS to
check for stolen parts and if the
car itself was stolen.
Risk a vin reassignment and a bonded
title, I'd go for it if the NCIS check is
clean. Price is gonna drop way down,
though.

 

[nitro_rat]

After watching the vid it's evident why
the LEO's pulled the tags, and there's
probably an on-going investigation into
this cars' backround.
It will take some time as LEO's will
follow the paper trail of repairs and
changes of ownership.
It is a no no to remove, reposition,
reattach a vin tag.
(a dead give away for vin tampering).
Though the numbers may match they
still don't like it when that tag is
messed with.
If this car was wrecked (and totalled
by an insurance company), that
just exaserbates the problems.
they'll run the vins thru NCIS to
check for stolen parts and if the
car itself was stolen.
Risk a vin reassignment and a bonded
title, I'd go for it if the NCIS check is
clean. Price is gonna drop way down,
though.

Both Kansas and Arizona have specifically changed the language of the law to allow VIN tags to be removed, restored, and replaced on vehicles manufactured prior to 1981 (when the modern 17 digit standardized VIN program began).

I'm not a lawyer but I also do not believe it is illegal to remove and replace a VIN tag when it is necessary during a legitimate repair. A good example of this is "2ng Gen" Dodge pickups where the VIN is attached to the plastic core of the dash board. The dashes in these trucks are known to disintegrate with time, temperature, and UV exposure. If a replacement core from a wrecked donor truck is installed, it is neither illegal to remove the donor's VIN tag from the dash core, nor to reattach the original trucks tag to the donor core.

I have seen it done all possible ways:

1. Donor tag left on the dash which arouses confusion because it doesn't match the sticker in the door jamb.

2. Donor tag removed, which arouses suspicion from passerby as no tag is present at all.

3. Original tag reattached to donor dash, which is probably the least suspicious solution.

4. In one instance I did find a truck that had a fraudulently attached tag although it had both titles and tags. I was able to remove the fraudulent tag and resolve the issues with the original title. The fraudulent items were destroyed.

Bottom line is, that as long as no fraud is committed, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with removing, reconditioning, and replacing a VIN tag during a restoration. If it was, stuff like this wouldn't be legal to sell...

 

[68BabyBlue]

After watching the vid it's evident why
the LEO's pulled the tags, and there's
probably an on-going investigation into
this cars' backround.
It will take some time as LEO's will
follow the paper trail of repairs and
changes of ownership.
It is a no no to remove, reposition,
reattach a vin tag.
(a dead give away for vin tampering).
Though the numbers may match they
still don't like it when that tag is
messed with.
If this car was wrecked (and totalled
by an insurance company), that
just exaserbates the problems.
they'll run the vins thru NCIS to
check for stolen parts and if the
car itself was stolen.
Risk a vin reassignment and a bonded
title, I'd go for it if the NCIS check is
clean. Price is gonna drop way down,
though.

These issues are why I've bought cars with a documented title history going back to the first sale as a used car. Eliminates most of the vehicle pool with cars this old, but saves a lot of trouble in the long run. This practice was ingrained in me when I did real estate title searches during my sole year in private practice as a rookie lawyer. Didn't make any money at that gig, but probably saved me buckets down the road when the cars got expensive.

 

[NoCar2023]

From what I gather, the Cops took the VIN and body tag because they didn't match the body number.
They don't give a rat's *** if it's a factory mistake.
Somebody at Barrett Johnson had to notify them.
Cops don't hang around car auctions checking body numbers.

 

[1STMP]

Both Kansas and Arizona have specifically changed the language of the law to allow VIN tags to be removed, restored, and replaced on vehicles manufactured prior to 1981 (when the modern 17 digit standardized VIN program began).

I'm not a lawyer but I also do not believe it is illegal to remove and replace a VIN tag when it is necessary during a legitimate repair. A good example of this is "2ng Gen" Dodge pickups where the VIN is attached to the plastic core of the dash board. The dashes in these trucks are known to disintegrate with time, temperature, and UV exposure. If a replacement core from a wrecked donor truck is installed, it is neither illegal to remove the donor's VIN tag from the dash core, nor to reattach the original trucks tag to the donor core.

I have seen it done all possible ways:

1. Donor tag left on the dash which arouses confusion because it doesn't match the sticker in the door jamb.

2. Donor tag removed, which arouses suspicion from passerby as no tag is present at all.

3. Original tag reattached to donor dash, which is probably the least suspicious solution.

4. In one instance I did find a truck that had a fraudulently attached tag although it had both titles and tags. I was able to remove the fraudulent tag and resolve the issues with the original title. The fraudulent items were destroyed.

Bottom line is, that as long as no fraud is committed, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with removing, reconditioning, and replacing a VIN tag during a restoration. If it was, stuff like this wouldn't be legal to sell...

View attachment 1795871

From the vid...
The tag became suspicious when it
was shown to be "out of place" wether
there was intended fraud or not. You
are correct in that tags are allowed
to be removed for repair. But that
process needs to be documented
usually with a LEO who signs off
on that process.
Been thru this a couple times here
in NM. (a state notorious for chop
shops' dirty deeds).

 

[WileE]

Isn't it every man's dream to be on TV with your wife/girlfriend at your side, both smiling and giggly, as you just paid more stupid money for a car than everybody else ?

Uhhh.... isn't my sarcasm obvious ?

 

[NoCar2023]

I watched the BJ auction for a couple of hours this weekend. I noticed a lot of vehicles crossing the block with that "bonded title" disclaimer. I hadn't seen this before.

Sell at Barrett Johnson---lose your VIN...

 

[1STMP]

Uhhh.... isn't my sarcasm obvious ?

Yep....
Problem is some people have more
money than sense. A fool and his
money are soon parted.

 

[nitro_rat]

From what I gather, the Cops took the VIN and body tag because they didn't match the body number.
They don't give a rat's *** if it's a factory mistake.
Somebody at Barrett Johnson had to notify them.
Cops don't go to car auctions to check body numbers.

I don't know what Mecum does but BJ has Dave Wise come and authenticate any Mopars that come through. There was a fake pink AAR that was sold a few times at auction which really brought awareness to the issue.

 

[padam]

Uhhh.... isn't my sarcasm obvious ?

Not really, cause it seems like there are plenty who do enjoy it.

 

[nitro_rat]

I watched the BJ auction for a couple of hours this weekend. I noticed a lot of vehicles crossing the block with that "bonded title" disclaimer. I hadn't seen this before.

Sell at Barrett Johnson---lose your VIN...

I think that "sell fake a BJ, loose your VIN" might be more appropriate. The auction house has a reputation to uphold. If some fakers get their feelings hurt that is far better than paying customers being defrauded...

 

[NoCar2023]

BJ should have presented that car as the only 69 Mopar in existence with an offset VIN and body number mis-punch. ONE OF ONE!
It could have brought millions....

And the factory installed 1968 driver door.
Edit-passenger door..

 

[Belvedere408]

Well he can just turn it into a sweet race car then.

 

[chargervert]

Or a chevy??

Damn! You buy one Chevy since 1994 and you never live it down! I got 25 Mopars and a bastard AMX!

 

[nitro_rat]

BJ should have presented that car as the only 69 Mopar in existence with an offset VIN and body number mis-punch. ONE OF ONE!
It could have brought millions....

And the factory installed 1968 driver door.

Well he can just turn it into a sweet race car then.

Convertibles make the best race cars, especially overpriced ones!

 

[1STMP]

I watched the BJ auction for a couple of hours this weekend. I noticed a lot of vehicles crossing the block with that "bonded title" disclaimer. I hadn't seen this before.

Sell at Barrett Johnson---lose your VIN...

I can't help but think there's added
scrutiny with older car sales, looking
for anything to get them off the road.
Like the Feds have handed down
new rules/mandates for BJ & M.
I went with a bonded title due to
the original title being long lost,
with no way to trace who the title
owner was at the time of purchase.
The truck is 85 years old.
The titles on these cars slated for
bonds evidently have problems,
due to many being restored using
parts from different vehicles. (W/
serial/vin numbers on them).
The problem lies with trying to
apply newer car rules to older
cars when it come to titles. It's
the ol' apples to oranges thing.
NHRA and similar car clubs have
complained about this for years.
If it's shown on a car to have
mis-matching serial/vin numbers
or signs of tampering, it's an
immediate red flag.

 

[nitro_rat]

Texas has both a Motor Vehicle Title Manual and an Assembled Motor Vehicle Manual which pretty much outline how to approach any situation that might be encountered. I'm sure most other states have similar. In many cases, whatever is done just flies under the radar because most of the time not only does no one know, but no one is looking either.

 

[chargervert]

Somebody flagged that car for the obviously incorrect VIN tag.

 

[68BabyBlue]

I don't know what Mecum does but BJ has Dave Wise come and authenticate any Mopars that come through. There was a fake pink AAR that was sold a few times at auction which really brought awareness to the issue.

There's a fake terra cotta Chrysler 300F convertible that's been floating around the auction circuit for three decades. I was a 300 club member when I owned my 300F hardtop, and read the backstory in the monthly newsletter. Restoration was done to a high standard, I saw it in person when it sold at a Kruse auction at Auburn, IN, when I was a regular attendee. The prices have varied considerably over the years, depending on knowledge of the participating bidders . A few times it's brought close to the price of a real one, but most of the time it's sold for a fraction. The VINs are the same for the hardtop and convertible on that model, but there is a microfilm record of how the cars were built. The one in question started out as a hardtop.

 

[dadsbee]

The entire auction scene is a colluded mess... why should this car be any different !