Legal issue with VIN on a B-J car today?

[nitro_rat]

This one may have been pulled from the docket? Not listed in the results. One thing I noted was that where the dash vin plate should have been was that it looked like it was just pulled off. There was unwiped dirt where the vin plate should have been. I wish I had photos.

The dash vin and fender tag were removed by the state police at the auction. The video in the first post shows the car at the auction with said tags still in place before they were removed...

 

[eldubb440]

in our little world, fender tags have significance......... but from a legal standpoint, a fender tag means nothing........ this story stinks to high heaven

 

[YY1]

It is a second VIN location "affixed" to the vehicle.

That counts in FL.

Pre-1969 is an issue here, even for a "simple" out of state sale if you don't get a cooperative agent.

 

[Black_Sheep]

in our little world, fender tags have significance......... but from a legal standpoint, a fender tag means nothing........ this story stinks to high heaven

That’s why I questioned removing the fender tag

 

[nitro_rat]

It is a second VIN location "affixed" to the vehicle.

That counts in FL.

Pre-1969 is an issue here, even for a "simple" out of state sale if you don't get a cooperative agent.

Yeah, I can see that. The VIN is only on the one tag, all the other numbers are the order number. And those are only corroborated on the factory IBM tag, the build sheet, and the original window sticker.

 

[WileE]

There may be more drama on this Mopar than on Graveyard cars !

 

[nitro_rat]

There may be more drama on this Mopar than on Graveyard cars !

 

[moparedtn]

So if Dave Wise doesnt like a VIN he can have LEOs remove it along with the fender tag?
And the seller has no say in the matter?

do they have a court order? some sort of warrant? cops are just allowed to deface someone's property?

so confiscate the car, why pry the numbers off of it? makes no sense to me

Agree THEN verify what it is or isn't...

Y'all are asking questions (and making some unfounded assumptions) that aren't going to be answered with any
accuracy here, short of someone from the appropriate state government department chiming in here - someone
not only versed in the applicable laws in that state, but one also familiar with the investigation.
Anything else is speculation at best.

I'd like to know the specifics as well, but I bet we won't ever hear all of what went down.

 

[WileE]

We need to send in a chief investigator on this ...

 

[moparedtn]

We need to send in a chief investigator on this ...View attachment 1796416

....wish somebody would send him somewhere.....

 

[nitro_rat]

We need to send in a chief investigator on this ...

....wish somebody would send him somewhere.....

I do enjoy seeing the cars on that show. The humor is a little off key most of the time but it's more entertaining than most other stuff on the boob toob!

 

[QuickBpBp]

Y'all are asking questions (and making some unfounded assumptions) that aren't going to be answered with any
accuracy here, short of someone from the appropriate state government department chiming in here - someone
not only versed in the applicable laws in that state, but one also familiar with the investigation.
Anything else is speculation at best.

I'd like to know the specifics as well, but I bet we won't ever hear all of what went down.

This entire post about this car was started based on unfounded assumptions…

 

[moparedtn]

This entire post about this car was started based on unfounded assumptions…

Actually, no.
The VIN and fender tag were actually removed from the car at the auction and the car wasn't allowed to be
sold until assigned an AZ bonded title. That much we know.

 

[moparedtn]

A little bit of stuff I found online:
(from Arizona Motor Vehicle Code 28-4593):
Altering a serial or identification number; classification; exception

A. A person who knowingly removes, defaces, alters or destroys a manufacturer's serial or identification number of a motor vehicle or major component part of a vehicle without the permission of the department is guilty of a class 3 misdemeanor.

B. A person who intentionally removes, defaces, alters or destroys a manufacturer's serial or identification number of a motor vehicle or major component part of a vehicle with the intent to alter the identity of that or another motor vehicle or major component part is guilty of a class 5 felony.

C. This section does not apply to a person who, for motor vehicles manufactured before 1981, removes and reinstalls a manufacturer's serial or identification number from a motor vehicle if the removal and reinstallation are reasonably necessary for repair or restoration, unless the person knows or has reason to know that the motor vehicle is stolen.

There's a bunch more to read in AZ Code about the subject if one is interested. Thought those few were pertinent...
Oh BTW, it also says if someone is knowingly in posession of an altered VIN car, that's the same as doing the actual altering -
and things get real serious if one knowingly tries to sell an altered VIN car.

 

[QuickBpBp]

Actually, no.
The VIN and fender tag were actually removed from the car at the auction and the car wasn't allowed to be
sold until assigned an AZ bonded title. That much we know.

That's it but not why. We also know it traded hands many times with-out issue as is.

 

[moparedtn]

That's it but not why. We also know it traded hands many times with-out issue as is.

Which is why AZ is doing their investigation now, I reckon - they'd like to know who knew what when as well.

 

[nitro_rat]

This entire post about this car was started based on unfounded assumptions…

There are some definite facts.

1. This car has traded hands several times in the past several years.
2. The "restoration" leaves something to be desired especially at the last asking price point..
3. The VIN tag had the number stamped off center
4. The core support had one digit mis-stamped but it appeared to be an original factory stamping
5. The VIN tag was removed at BJ

So, I don't know what assumptions are unfounded. There is definitely cause for suspicion due to the errantly stamped VIN tag and body number.

1. The engine/transmission VIN's allegedly match the car. As far as I know this has only been claimed by the seller, not documented. There's a video on FB posted yesterday pre-sale where Steve Magnante makes that same claim.
2. AFAIK, the body number in the trunk has not been documented.

There may be some other evidence that the FBI/State Police have that hasn't been disclosed, but I have a feeling that if they had anything concrete that the entire vehicle would have been seized.

At this point, hopefully the buyer will come out and share what's going on. That is probably going to be very important information regarding the future resale value of this car...

 

[nitro_rat]

That's it but not why. We also know it traded hands many times with-out issue as is.

This is why:

The number is stamped off center on the VIN tag. That, and the "hidden" body number on the core support is stamped "9G304552" instead of "9G104552."

 

[QuickBpBp]

There are some definite facts.

1. This car has traded hands several times in the past several years. Rare or High dollar cars are traded and moved amongst dealers ALL the time
2. The "restoration" leaves something to be desired especially at the last asking price point.. Many cars restored years ago people used what they could find sometimes verse what it's actually correct now that it's a high dollar car those things are scrutinized more
3. The VIN tag had the number stamped off center These mistakes/mistamps sometimes happen on the production line especially back in the 60's
4. The core support had one digit mis-stamped but it appeared to be an original factory stamping See above
5. The VIN tag was removed at BJ The whole car should have been confiscated then carefully looked at NOT SOLD as it's origin may have been questionable

So, I don't know what assumptions are unfounded. There is definitely cause for suspicion due to the errantly stamped VIN tag and body number. People saying that the car is a complete fraud as it very well could be as it was originally but now the $$$ involved put it under a microscope

1. The engine/transmission VIN's allegedly match the car. As far as I know this has only been claimed by the seller, not documented. There's a video on FB posted yesterday pre-sale where Steve Magnante makes that same claim. Sadly fake block/transmission stamping goes on all the time to get more $$$ IF this indeed restamped.
2. AFAIK, the body number in the trunk has not been documented. They ripped the Vin tag off the dash they could have easily checked for the trunk gutter numbers but they obviously did not know

There may be some other evidence that the FBI/State Police have that hasn't been disclosed, but I have a feeling that if they had anything concrete that the entire vehicle would have been seized. Completely agree.

At this point, hopefully the buyer will come out and share what's going on. That is probably going to be very important information regarding the future resale value of this car... I would like to know the FACTS also as for the last 20 years there was no issues with the car trading hands and being in the public eye.

 

[nitro_rat]

@QuickBpBp if you read through the entire 6 pages of this thread you will see that I agree with everything you said.

My opinion is that while there is cause for suspicion due to the multiple issues, I would have to see more evidence to believe that any fraud has been committed. I think the car is probably genuine and is the victim of sloppy attention at the factory upon assembly, sloppy treatment by it's early ownership, sloppy restoration by whomever cleaned it up, and sloppy detective work by whomever cut the VIN tag off of it.

But now that the car is in the position that it's in, the entire situation needs to be brought to light. Pictures of the engine and transmission stampings, the trunk numbers, as much prior ownership history as possible, etc. so that if the thing does prove to be legitimate, that its value isn't forever tarnished by an overzealous inspector at an auction site.