New Engine Build - Low Oil Pressure Problem

[Road Grabber]

I thought I would ask the Mopar experts out there for their thoughts with my situation.

Some background:
I brought a 440 six pack engine to a builder to freshen it up with a more modern approach. The engine ran great except I had some bad gas clogging the filter and carbs. A freeze out plug ready to rust out. Leaking gaskets from 25 years ago. Engine compartment peeling - just needed to come out. I had closed chamber heads which were great until I couldn't get high test and it was pinging. Figured aluminum heads to combat heat and the detonation. I built this engine, myself using the Yellow Direct Connection book specs. Worked great with a 284/484 Purple Shaft Cam

After some research I liked the idea of Trickflow 240 heads with hydraulic roller rockers and roller lifters. Bought the heads, cam from Hughes Cams, Harland Sharp rockers.

After 4 years my engine builder bailed on me. Lost staff and didn't want to finish the job. I wanted to finish the build on a dyno. He told me to come pick it up which meant I was responsible for stuff that didn't work out on start up. I have a few words for him....

I put the rest of the engine together. The long block was assembled with the heads, rockers, valve train, intake and oil pump together. Shipped to him with factory instructions.

After putting the rest of the engine together I primed the oil pump before start up which was the very first red flag. I couldn't get a steady hard resistance while using my drill. Some resistance but not the usual hard pump. I have always had to use a 1/2 drive drive for fear of burning out the drill if I didn't. I let the drill prime and I know oil was pumping but it wasn't really making pressure. I was using break-in oil and thought maybe the thinner 30 weight oil might be the reason. I called the builder and he said they run their primer for sometimes 10 minutes. I never had to do that but he is a race engine building shop right?---mostly Chevy engines of course...Engine builders are hard to find in my area.

I don't want to make this a book so here goes.

At start up it took much longer to build up to 10, 20 then 30 psi oil pressure that didn't seam to raise with rpms. I had clatter that took a while to work out but I wasn't sure how long this would take given the different valve train. I didn't know if he pre-pumped the lifters or let them soak. I heard Harland Sharp valve train needs more oil. I had other issues like gas and oil leaks so I shut it down. I worked out leaks in the carbs due to crappy gaskets. I fixed leaking valve cover gaskets. Started a second and third time with ticking noises again thinking maybe the valve train was hitting the valve covers. Took off the valve covers - they are not hitting. I moved the rockers by hand on some of the rockers and they were moving 1/16"? play. I thought maybe bleed down after start up?

I posted this problem with the Trickflow heads and ticking then did some research. Trickflow for some of you thinking about this has oil restrictors already in the heads and are setup for Harland Sharp valve train. This is not an oil restrictor issue. I called them to verify.

I used a lifter preload procedure chart posted by someone to check preload. I set the preload to 5/8 a turn. Trickflow says they use 1/2 turn so I'm not far off really to make a difference in my opinion. I started the engine and a lot of MORE noise on I think mostly the passenger bank that eventually lessened. Enough that I was worried I hit the valves on it seemed the right bank.

I removed the valve covers AGAIN and adjusted the valves preload using TDC for each cylinder and started it again. The tapping noise was better but it ran rough.

I think I am not getting pressurized oil needs to the lifters. I hope the builder didn't forget to put back a galley plug?

I have a high volume pump that I know was putting out 60 psi for the engine before. I didn't use it again because I sent a new Melling regular pump to the builder. I am thinking install it and see if something changes. At least try priming with the other pump.

Since the pressure was not good from the get go when I primed I figure maybe bad pump, bad relief pressure pump valve, forgotten oil galley plug?

I am HOPING the bearings are not damaged. It did take a bit to pressure to 30 psi but there was oil up in the heads so some oil is getting in the engine but not any decent pressure. And the oil pressure is not rising with rpm. It might get to 30 and stay there.

Just a side note. I did use the proper distributor gear for the roller lifter cam setup. I don't think it's the drive gear since I didn't get much out of priming from the very beginning. The crank was never cut so I don't think he put the wrong size bearings in.

Cam bearing install I can't tell you. I hope someone in a race engine shop knows how to install bearings?

Does anyone have some insight they can share? Thank you in advance. This sucks....

 

[Beekeeper]

Since you are running roller lifters the first thing to check if you haven’t already is to be sure the oil band in the lifter isn’t being exposed out of the lifter bore above and below. It will bleed like a stuck hog if they do not remain in the lifter bore through the full length of travel.

 

[andyf]

Low oil pressure can be caused by lots of issues so you have to start at one end and work your way to the other end. If you have another oil pump then swap that first. It is an easy swap and the oil pump is often the problem. If the engine is still on the stand you can pull the intake and the valve covers so you can watch the oil flow around the lifters as well as the drain back and the flow around the rockers. Don't forget that you have a relief valve in the system which can stick open as well as various galley plugs. There are a lot of leaks in a BB Mopar oiling system. The lifters all leak oil and so do all of the rocker arms. The main, rod and cam bearings all leak oil out the sides too.

 

[Road Grabber]

Since you are running roller lifters the first thing to check if you haven’t already is to be sure the oil band in the lifter isn’t being exposed out of the lifter bore above and below. It will bleed like a stuck hog if they do not remain in the lifter bore through the full length of travel.

So how do I do that? Remove the intake?
Why would an oil band be exposed? Too high a lift? Are you talking about the groove in the lifter? This is a 530 lift cam.

Would this bleed be a huge problem during priming the pump without the engine running?

 

[dan juhasz]

rocker shafts installed correctly?

 

[Beekeeper]

You could possibly check that by removing a valve cover and looking down by the push rods using a light
Should only need to look at one of them while having someone turn the engine by hand.
Removing the intake would be the better way to check them.
You didn’t specify what lifters you are using but some are made to be used with bushed lifter bores and the location of the bands vary between the manufacturers.
Yes it would create an oil bleed while priming since the bands on some lifters would be exposed. Also follow the advice of andyf on the oiling system on the BB mopar and start at the pump and work your way through the system. I gave the insight on the lifters because I had that issue before with roller lifters in a BB mopar.

 

[Road Grabber]

Low oil pressure can be caused by lots of issues so you have to start at one end and work your way to the other end. If you have another oil pump then swap that first. It is an easy swap and the oil pump is often the problem. If the engine is still on the stand you can pull the intake and the valve covers so you can watch the oil flow around the lifters as well as the drain back and the flow around the rockers. Don't forget that you have a relief valve in the system which can stick open as well as various galley plugs. There are a lot of leaks in a BB Mopar oiling system. The lifters all leak oil and so do all of the rocker arms. The main, rod and cam bearings all leak oil out the sides too.

I guess it could come to that if swapping the pump doesn't change anything. The motor in in the car assembled. Would you do this while priming the pump?

You could possibly check that by removing a valve cover and looking down by the push rods using a light
Should only need to look at one of them while having someone turn the engine by hand.
Removing the intake would be the better way to check them.
You didn’t specify what lifters you are using but some are made to be used with bushed lifter bores and the location of the bands vary between the manufacturers.
Yes it would create an oil bleed while priming since the bands on some lifters would be exposed. Also follow the advice of andyf on the oiling system on the BB mopar and start at the pump and work your way through the system. I gave the insight on the lifters because I had that issue before with roller lifters in a BB mopar.

I have to double check which lifters I bought. I think Hughes but not 100 percent sure yet.

Thanks for the replies.

So the high lift of the cams can push the roller lifters higher than normal exposing the oil groove? Wouldn’t a manufacturer know enough not to design that flaw?

 

[jimbosride]

Had similar issues ..... but my engine was Dyno run .... so I thought it was ready to go. When I started it there was a delay of pressure to reach the mechanical
gauge but had good pressure. First power run ....gauge went to Zero. Shut engine off on a 4th to 3rd power shift ... got good pressure to get it back to the shop.

Yanked the oil pump and found that the builder used so much rtv that when assembled the oil pick up passage closed down about 50% or more starving the engine
under hard acceleration.

Put on a new pump. cut open filter .... no damage so far ..... 2000 miles last summer. So maybe start with the pump ..... remember I am no expert on this

 

[rickseeman]

This is why Ma Mopar says no sealant on this gasket. Because she knows someone will put too much on. Of course any RTV that gets in that hole goes straight into your oil galleys.

 

[RemCharger]

Wouldn’t a manufacturer know enough not to design that flaw?

Grasshopper you sound like you've designed many aftermarket parts. Valid question.

 

[Road Grabber]

This is why Ma Mopar says no sealant on this gasket. Because she knows someone will put too much on. Of course any RTV that gets in that hole goes straight into your oil galleys.

My situation is I never felt much pressure when I primed the pump. Normally there is a significant amount of resistance when you prime. I have always used 1/2 drive drills because of the load on the drill while priming the oil system.
The drill just kept going with some but not a lot of resistance when priming.
I am going to pull the pump regardless to rule it out and call the builder today. I don’t think he will offer up anything that puts him to blame.
Before I tried readjusting to preload I could actually rock one or two of the roller rockers quite a bit like they weren’t even pumped up.
If that can be caused by lack of oil getting to the lifter then it is a possible cause for sure.
I’m going to look through my receipts and see which lifters I purchased today.
One thing that I noticed was that when I went to paint the engine the pump which was supposed to be new seemed like it had some surface rust. He did have the engine going on four years but it was inside. I don’t know why that it would have surface rust.
Again I thought the pressure was taking too long to build up at start up. My engines have always jumped up at initial start up.

 

[rickseeman]

Yes, if you didn't feel it build up pressure and pull the drill down there is a problem somewhere. And I think pulling the pump is a good first move. Disregard that surface rust on the pump. 2 places that it can suck air are the o-ring on the boss that sticks up in the block and the base gasket between the pump and the block. Look at these items closely. Sucking air would give you the symptoms you describe. The oil pump is easy to tear down and put back together. Go ahead and do that. Before you take the pump off the block loosen the oil pressure relief spring cap. It's much easier to break it loose now with it bolted on the block. While you're there go ahead and break loose the 2 little bolts that hold the pump together. Now remove the pump carefully and look to see if that base gasket has a problem. And when you pull the pump out of the block does it feel like the o-ring is doing it's job? Disassemble the pump. If your pinky is small enough you can use it to make sure the relief piston is moving freely, if not use a small magnet. If it is moving freely and everything looks good, put the pump back together, wiping everything with engine oil. We probably didn't fix anything but we still did the right thing first. Take your time putting the oil pump on because in the car that base gasket is unfriendly to work with without any sticky on the gasket to hold it in place while you're putting the pump on. Now prime the engine and see how much oil pressure you have. It's probably the same but at least we eliminated the pump.

 

[Road Grabber]

Yes, if you didn't feel it build up pressure and pull the drill down there is a problem somewhere. And I think pulling the pump is a good first move. Disregard that surface rust on the pump. 2 places that it can suck air are the o-ring on the boss that sticks up in the block and the base gasket between the pump and the block. Look at these items closely. Sucking air would give you the symptoms you describe. The oil pump is easy to tear down and put back together. Go ahead and do that. Before you take the pump off the block loosen the oil pressure relief spring cap. It's much easier to break it loose now with it bolted on the block. While you're there go ahead and break loose the 2 little bolts that hold the pump together. Now remove the pump carefully and look to see if that base gasket has a problem. And when you pull the pump out of the block does it feel like the o-ring is doing it's job? Disassemble the pump. If your pinky is small enough you can use it to make sure the relief piston is moving freely, if not use a small magnet. If it is moving freely and everything looks good, put the pump back together, wiping everything with engine oil. We probably didn't fix anything but we still did the right thing first. Take your time putting the oil pump on because in the car that base gasket is unfriendly to work with without any sticky on the gasket to hold it in place while you're putting the pump on. Now prime the engine and see how much oil pressure you have. It's probably the same but at least we eliminated the pump.

Thank you for taking the time to respond and give advice on the procedure.

I did remove the pump thinking I wanted the high volume feature anyway and I know it worked well on my engine before with less than 20,000 cause it was a season cruise only car.

The pump I removed looked like the gasket was fine with no rtv sealant to block passages. I did remove the relief valve spring but didn’t know how to work the plunger inside to move it. I did flip upside down with nothing coming out. I will go back and try the magnet method cause I want to know if the pump is the cause.

I installed the high volume pump I had with new O rings with now longer bolts cause the pump is 1/4” thicker. You’re right the gasket is tricky to line up but now installed with a new filter.

When I primed the pump with the 1/2” drill I did get resistance I didn’t feel before. That’s good news. Unfortunately time ran out and I will start the engine sometime soon. Hopefully today.

When I return I will check to see if I can move the relief valve.

Question- this valve should slide back and forth easily?

Thanks again.

 

[furious70]

What psi did the drill create on the hv pump?

 

[rickseeman]

Yes, the valve should slide freely. You can use one of those pocket screwdrivers that has a small magnet in the other end.

 

[Road Grabber]

Yes, the valve should slide freely. You can use one of those pocket screwdrivers that has a small magnet in the other end.

I did start the engine. It did produce the oil much better pressure. I'm not sure what went wrong with the melling pump. I removed the spring and plunger easy enough with a magnet. I get over 50 psi now.

New problem. I adjusted the valve preload previously thinking it might have been the problem. Someone replied to a post giving me a chart to follow for the steps adjusting every 90 degrees. When I restarted the engine I heard some clapping. I'm hoping the pistons didn't hit the valves. I readjusted them using TDC for each cylinder and that seemed better but I was still of course dealing with the low oil pressure.

The engine runs quite now that I changed the pump with some smoke puffing when I hit the gas. It seems like a mixture of blue and black.

I did richen the carb but I'm not liking the blue smoke puff. It does have at least one miss.

I have to pull and check the plugs when it cools down. I want to do a compression check but I know I won't be able to get into numbers 6 & 8 plug holes because they are tight to the inner fender.

Any advice for checking for bent valves or symptoms would be appreciated.

Would a compression check be the end all determining it the valves hit?

Is there a compression check tool out there that can get into tight spots?

 

[rickseeman]

If you are getting over 50 psi oil pressure now then maybe the oil pressure problem is fixed. But I'm still not convinced you are setting the valves properly. You and I would think if you set the valves at TDC firing then the valves would be closed so that's fine right? No, that's not how you set the valves. Set the valves as shown in the chart below, right out of the Mopar B/RB book.

 

[rickseeman]

Disregard that last chart I posted. I was thinking you were still using that .484" lift cam. Your Trick Flow cam is too big for that chart. You need to use the Mopar 8 position chart.

 

[RemCharger]

Or the EOIC method. Covers all cam sizes and accurate

 

[Road Grabber]

I will do that. Question is why now the puff of blue smoke and a miss?
Will too much preload in the incorrect cam position bend valves?
The cam is.530 lift and.286.6 duration