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Stock 440 Block Horsepower Limit

If anticipated use is 60-80% cruising and car shows, and the 20-40% is hammering it on test and tune nights and grudge racing friends or pick up races at the track, what aftermarket block is available and recommended? Reliability and longevity are critical! If there is an aluminium block that qualifies, I would be happy to lose the cast iron weight too. 6XX Torque and 6XX HP goal, and the strength to handle a 150 HP nitrous shot.
 
It's not so much core shift and wall thickness. You can test for that. What you can't test is main web integrity. Granted the 400 blocks are some what thicker in this area. There are plenty runing around that have't broke. I agree light parts and NO detonation will go a long way towards longer use. The one I broke had BME rods and fairly light Venolia pistons. Never saw over 6800 rpm.
Doug
the exploded engine I refer to had venolia light weights and bme rods. ironically neither rods or pistons came apart. the #4 cap literally disintegrated, #3 and #4 webs broke out and were twisted and the crank broke. why would someone put thousands of dollars in a build (or maybe I should say bomb) and keep a flimsy stock block? neither arp, or anybody else's gadget, is gonna save your fanny; they're just time bombs.
 
According to Wallace Racing calculator for ET and weight, 550. With an old school build...light pistons and Hemi rods, it showed cap walk after over 300 passes.
 
Everything you build is a gamble. Build it as tough as you can afford. But, these two have yet to fail...............

My 500"/440 using 440 Source crank and rods, Ross pistons and a Pro-Gram 4-bolt main conversion has progressively gone 750, 850 & 928 horsepower.

The 451 stroker with a factory 440 forged crank, Scat H-beam rods, Ross pistons, stock main caps and ARP main studs has hundreds of pulls from 621-787 horsepower. It is now at 580 HP and running in the shop truck.
I don't think there is an exact "number" anyone can definitively say X for example, above or below which a Block will break, vrs be fine ?
IMO, just far too many factors to longevity at any power level ?
* Bobweight of the rotating assembly itself
* Balancing factor for the rpm, 50% or slight overbalance
* The rpm itself
* How it's firing, ie: detonation, which even though nobody's hearing it with Dome Pistons and Heads that Flow off the backside of the cylinder(remix), it can still be there, and remember here... a "little bit" of detonation makes the best power, so in my experience best to back down slightly from that highest Track mph.
and of course,
* the differences in the Blocks themselves, thickness of the detroit wonder metal in places
on and on
We've seen them live just fine at 700+ with just Main Studs... on stock caps !
and then again,
we've seen them presenting during refreshening after a mere 100-200 runs at 750, with main webs cracks, #4 registers developing mountain ranges, pretty much getting ready to calve, and with Aluminuim Caps/Girdle/partial fills in place ?

I DUNNO !

I would trust & defer to what these 2 guys say...

pretty much anything Jim/IQ52 says I take as gospel...

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I've had several 470-479ci B-Engines based on the weaker 383 blocks also
with aftermarket internals, that made north of 700hp & some with N20 too
upwards of 1000hp on the track, in street/strip 68 RR's...
1st one ran best of 9.77 @ 135 N/A & a best 8.58 & 156mph 3520#'s on N20
on drag radials, 6pt roll bar
{couldn't make too many passes, usually on test & tune days too}
but, I never dyno'd them, I went by on track performance...
I always used a girdle, it was/is cheap insurance, it doesn't hurt you...
The 1st one, my old silver 68 RR is still running around Sacramento today,
it had 12k miles when I sold it, he claims he's done a fe 9.90 passes
in it & still driving it too...

I've also ran 426ci max wedge filled to the freezeplugs with Portland cement
running early on a Hampton 8:71 & later a Littlefield 10:71 blown
Hi helix twisted rotors as much as 45#'s boost, Enderle Mech. FI on alcohol
that lived in an light-ish 23 T (T/A Funny Car chassis) Altered,
engine solidly mounted in the chassis, engine plate & ears off the front
for 2 seasons freshening regularly, doing a full block check it up yearly,
checking of cracks (especially in the center main webs) etc.
1800#'s plus (with 200#'s of ballast) me 250# running 6.90's @ 190+
Even with all that chassis flex, it didn't split or crack or grenade
{like everyone says they will}
That's a far sight more than 700hp, it lived, lived well
it didn't split the bock or break the crank,
it did have aftermarket lightweight parts everywhere,
Forged crank, Childs & Albert rods, Venolia pistons,
billet "one off" splayed 4 bolt caps, a hand built girdle
a fuunycar style 12 qt. pan & Milodon pump system {external}..
I also stayed on top of it, broke it down pretty much after every race-day...

You'd be surprised what some blocks can handle,
would I do the same thing today ?, probably not !!
not with all the available {usually} aftermarket pieces we have today
20+ years ago we didn't have anywhere near what we have today
especially for Mopar's, let alone the wedge combos...

I'd say for the OP's combo the girdle is a great idea,
a 4 bolt or aftermarket/better block later isn't a bad idea either,
it's not if they will break ?, it's when !!, even on all that high dollar stuff...
 
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Hey guys, curious to see what everyone has seen out there about what these 40+ year old blocks can handle for horsepower. Purely assuming that the bottom end is forged aftermarket stuff and that everything else in the motor is up to snuff... What can a 440 handle hp range in ya'lls opinion? What have you guys done/seen? Thanks!

View attachment 538448
:popcorn:
 
I have a 440 that makes 630 NA with stock crank, eagle rods and SRP pistons. I made 50 nitrous passes (125 shot) in a 4100 pound tank running 10.30’s. I spin it up to 6800 +. So far no issues. Stock bottom no girdle.

I Have a 400 block that is bored and stroked to 511. It makes 838 HP NA and has ran the same car 10.14 NA.

Are either of these engines going to fail? Probably someday.

My biggest suggestion no matter what you decide is a properly balanced rotating assembly. That is a ton of weight flying around and it is money well spent IMO.
 
I would think the high RPM limit would have an effect to on this. It might live quite well at 6000 RPM, but maybe not at 7 or 7500 RPM. I agree with Jim build it as stout as you can. The old adage if you don't have the money to do it right the first time, you'll find the money to do it a second time.
 
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i watched a video back when i worked at Super Shops (that should date it) done by either hot rod or carcraft. it was all about girdles being used on high rpm eng. used "high speed cameras" to film blocks (big chevys) down the edges. you could see a diff in girdled vs non girdled in flex. i was amazed at how much flex the block gave.
 
I ran a stock block 440 with a stock steel crank, LY rods, lightweight Arias piston and ARP main studs for years. Of course the rods were fully prepped and it was balanced. Never dynoed it so the HP output is anybody's guess, it pushed my 3650lb car to 10.53 @ 126 and I shifted it at 7000 rpm. I had hundreds of passes on it with no catostrophic failure. What killed it was the pickup tube broke off and it lost oil pressure - when I tore it apart I did find some fairly serious cap-walk but no other "problems" I agree with the other posters in that - how well the engine runs (is tuned) has a huge effect on it's longevity. Also proper warm up has an effect. I'm no expert but these are my 2-cents.

http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/posts/910807081/
 
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Hey Schober Motorsports - I'd like to ask you a few questions about the block pictured in your original post. I tried to message you but your in-box is full. Are you willing?
 
I think some took my comments that around 800 HP was a "limit"? I was trying to say that to me, the cost of upgrading the stock block starts to get expensive and reliability may become questionable. Without upgrades, cap walk is common, but that does not mean the engine won't survive. At 600 HP, you really don't need much, ARP main studs with factory caps.
The 440 stroker I'm trying to piece together now should make around 600+ HP.
This is the Trick Flow 240 heads, and 440 source 512 stroker (0.030" over so 505") kit, and a mild solid roller cam.
I am thinking of getting the 440 source girdle kit (using stock main caps) as it comes with the ARP main and oil pan studs and the 1/4" girdle will work great as a spacer to move the one piece Jegs windage tray/oil pan gasket (4.15" stroke version) away from the crank rods.
I had previously used the Jegs windage tray/gasket on the 505 in my '69 Coronet without the girdle (only makes about 550 HP, really mild cam and Stealth heads), and I had to reshape the windage tray slightly for clearance, but the 1/4" girdle would make it fit great.
 
I think some took my comments that around 800 HP was a "limit"? I was trying to say that to me, the cost of upgrading the stock block starts to get expensive and reliability may become questionable. Without upgrades, cap walk is common, but that does not mean the engine won't survive. At 600 HP, you really don't need much, ARP main studs with factory caps.
The 440 stroker I'm trying to piece together now should make around 600+ HP.
This is the Trick Flow 240 heads, and 440 source 512 stroker (0.030" over so 505") kit, and a mild solid roller cam.
I am thinking of getting the 440 source girdle kit (using stock main caps) as it comes with the ARP main and oil pan studs and the 1/4" girdle will work great as a spacer to move the one piece Jegs windage tray/oil pan gasket (4.15" stroke version) away from the crank rods.
I had previously used the Jegs windage tray/gasket on the 505 in my '69 Coronet without the girdle (only makes about 550 HP, really mild cam and Stealth heads), and I had to reshape the windage tray slightly for clearance, but the 1/4" girdle would make it fit great.
It's not so much metal transfer from block to cap, even my Mega Block does some of that. What is definitely an issue is when it pulls the upper main webs out of the block. The upper main webbing is the weak point causing what can be catastrophic failure.
Doug
 
I am thinking of getting the 440 source girdle kit (using stock main caps) as it comes with the ARP main and oil pan studs and the 1/4" girdle will work great as a spacer to move the one piece Jegs windage tray/oil pan gasket (4.15" stroke version) away from the crank rods.
I appreciate your reasons for considering the 440 source girdle kit, "added strength and the bonus of moving the oil pan down a bit" but IMO the girdle should be chosen for its ability to add strength and longevity to a stock block that would be pushing the limits of a stock block or for added insurance.
This cap and girdle set has a unique design and I personally buy into the designer's explanation of what makes this one uniquely better.
http://www.bcrproducts.com/caps_and_girdle_system.html
 
The word "claim" certainly doesn't sell me.
Running on a dyno a bit doesnt sell me unless it was run without a girdle as well.
How do you know that the guy you know has a motor that was going to break if he didn't back it down.
Your still not selling me on a girdle.
He broke three blocks, got tired of it and backed it down to kill h.p., it worked. The car was pretty well known around here. "Don`t really care if it influenced you" one way or another, just stating what really happened. I run a girdle , studs and had the block and mains cryo`d, not expecting any problems.
 
I appreciate your reasons for considering the 440 source girdle kit, "added strength and the bonus of moving the oil pan down a bit" but IMO the girdle should be chosen for its ability to add strength and longevity to a stock block that would be pushing the limits of a stock block or for added insurance.
This cap and girdle set has a unique design and I personally buy into the designer's explanation of what makes this one uniquely better.
http://www.bcrproducts.com/caps_and_girdle_system.html

As in my earlier post, I have the BCR kit on my low deck stroker, but on this 440 engine which is only making around 600 HP, I don't feel the need for the added expense and machine work of putting new caps in the block? What I haven't decided on is the oil pickup. I have always ran 1/2" internal pickup with enlarged oil passages in the block, but I might use a single external type pickup? I have the oil pump cover with the remote filter fittings and external pickup. The external pickup can be removed and plugged if I want to use the internal pickup.
 
My 505, Goal of 1.7HP per C.I !! Had all the oil gallery's opened up, lifters Bushed, Girdle, Diamond Honed, Sonic Check ECT !!

IMG_0549.JPG
IMG_0547.JPG
IMG_0548.JPG
 
I appreciate your reasons for considering the 440 source girdle kit, "added strength and the bonus of moving the oil pan down a bit" but IMO the girdle should be chosen for its ability to add strength and longevity to a stock block that would be pushing the limits of a stock block or for added insurance.
This cap and girdle set has a unique design and I personally buy into the designer's explanation of what makes this one uniquely better.
http://www.bcrproducts.com/caps_and_girdle_system.html

I am using the BRC girdle on my current build - I agree it is a superior design.
 
I just found out that I have to find a different builder for my stroker RB 6bbl.
I would like to use a local builder, but I was also looking at MRL and Michigan Motors via Bob K (Mr. 6 pak).
My goal is 91-93 octane pump gas, the Edelbrock 6bbl is a MUST, and 6XX Torque and 6XX HP is the goal.
Suggestions?
 
I just found out that I have to find a different builder for my stroker RB 6bbl.
I would like to use a local builder, but I was also looking at MRL and Michigan Motors via Bob K (Mr. 6 pak).
My goal is 91-93 octane pump gas, the Edelbrock 6bbl is a MUST, and 6XX Torque and 6XX HP is the goal.
Suggestions?
Ask bobtile he’s got a good builder
 
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