HawkRod is doing the 2023 Hot Rod Power Tour!

[Darter6]

Agree ==

 

[HawkRod]

I'll tell you, some of the crap that happens...

..I only have a partial update.

So I filled the car with oil, fired her up, and let it sit running again on the lift for 30 minutes. After that I checked and everything was bone dry. Awesome so far, but the real test was to drive it. So I lowered the car and started it again. I noticed that my battery voltage was low. After looking around a bit I saw my one field wire (blue voltage wire) was not connected to the alternator (it turns out that a small piece of the connector has broken off that provides tension so it won't stay on well). I connected it back up through an alligator clip but still no charging. Alternator tested bad when I set the green field to ground. I threw on another alternator of unknown quality and I got the same result. I bench tested the original alternator and it bench tests OK, but can't seem to keep up in the car (maybe a diode went?). The second alternator definitely bench tested bad.

So I think I have two bad alternators. I need a squareback 70 amp alternator - hopefully I can get one quickly. Obviously I can't drive the car on the street without a working alternator, so further oil testing will need to wait. I'm not sure what happened to cause the one I had to go bad - could it go bad from not having the blue field wire connected?

Sigh.......

 

[Budnicks]

PITA working out the bugs sometimes...
as you have well documented it

looks great except for the blackened oil-covered headers

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is it a single field reg. used on a dual field alt. ?

I think it won't charge
if it is

ground one of the fields, to case
plug it back in
or bench test it
before you plug it back in

or the regulator took a dump
they've none to do that, especially the newer ones
maybe it/the field wire arced on something, grounded took out the reg.

sorry,
best I got

 

[HawkRod]

PITA working out the bugs sometimes...
as you have well documented it

looks great except for the blackened oil-covered headers

.
.
.
.
.
.


is it a single field reg. used on a dual field alt. ?

I think it won't charge
if it is

ground one of the fields, to case
plug it back in
or bench test it
before you plug it back in

or the regulator took a dump
they've none to do that, especially the newer ones
maybe it/the field wire arced on something, grounded took out the reg.

sorry,
best I got

It's a dual field alternator with the appropriate voltage regulator. It has been working just fine in my car for 8 years, but of course now, last minute before I leave on a trip, it decides to take a crap. I may have indirectly caused it when the field wire fell off? I don't know.

I disconnected both field wires and put 12 volts on one alternator field connection and grounded the other while it was in the car. No go - still wouldn't increase the voltage beyond what the battery was putting out. This makes the voltage regulator become a non-issue. So with that, I believe my alternator is not working.

Let me know if you think I missed something. This BS is the last thing I have time for right now. I need to be testing to be sure I solved my oil leaks!!!!

 

[Don Frelier]

A wire falling off won't damage the regulator.

 

[HawkRod]

A wire falling off won't damage the regulator.

Thanks - I didn't think so either. But it seems odd that I just drove it 300 some miles to my father-in-law's place and back with no issues. Then the alternator goes bad at the same time as I find a wire off (and I was making no changes to anything other than the oil pan). Did it spark and blow a diode when I tried to put it back on? Who knows?

All I know is the alternator isn't supplying enough voltage so it is what it is, although it's a bad time for this to happen.

 

[Darter6]

I had my 65 all ready for the Power Tour. The morning I was leaving I pulled into my girlfriends driveway to say good by.
Big puddle of oil and a stream line running down the street. The oil pressure sender split open.
Sh!t happen all the time.Old saying is to put spare parts in your trunk and you will never have a problem.
Alternator, regulator, spare senders and assortment of hoses and parts to plug things up.Hell I even carried a spare water pump.
Hang in there, it will be worth the aggravation in the long run.

 

[HawkRod]

I had my 65 all ready for the Power Tour. The morning I was leaving I pulled into my girlfriends driveway to say good by.
Big puddle of oil and a stream line running down the street. The oil pressure sender split open.
Sh!t happen all the time.Old saying is to put spare parts in your trunk and you will never have a problem.
Alternator, regulator, spare senders and assortment of hoses and parts to plug things up.Hell I even carried a spare water pump.
Hang in there, it will be worth the aggravation in the long run.

Haha. Yes, I carry a number of spare parts in my trunk - spare water pump, belts, voltage regulator, MSD 6AL box, etc., even some fuel injection modules. I try to have all the stuff that will be hard to source (and reasonably small too). Of course, I did/do not carry an alternator. Maybe that's why it broke!

My biggest frustration with the alternator situation isn't the fact that I need to replace it, but that it is delaying the verification that my oil leak is fixed. I won't really know that until I drive it some. Now I won't be able to do that until, at earliest, late Sunday, since today and tomorrow I have a wedding to attend. If my oil leak is fixed then I'll be in good shape. If it's not, well.............

 

[HawkRod]

OK, update for the day.

I got a replacement alternator. Turns out the mounting flange that the alternator pivots on is wider on this new alternator and it interferes with the bracket holding it. So I had to grind and clearance it to make it fit. Sigh. Nothing is ever easy. However, I now have a functioning alternator. One issue resolved.

Then I went driving around for maybe 45 minutes. I drove the car harder to have quick starts and stops and slosh oil around a lot. When I got it back on the lift I saw there is still an oil leak. Damn it!!! It is coming from the front of the engine - the rear area was dry.
What I'm not sure about is where specifically this is coming from; I'm not sure it is the oil pan gasket area. I'll have to check tomorrow morning carefully once the car (and me) have cooled down sufficiently.

 

[69L48Z27]

T - 1 week! Sorry to see it’s still fighting you a little bit.

We’ll be leaving from York, Pa. Sunday AM. Not sure if we’ll go down the front way (83 - Balt - DC - 95) or the back way (81) yet. Stopping in SC then head into Atlanta Monday AM. I’ll be on the lookout for ya. Keep an eye out for a red 2015 Z/28 w/PA tags.

 

[Geetex]

OK, update for the day.

I got a replacement alternator. Turns out the mounting flange that the alternator pivots on is wider on this new alternator and it interferes with the bracket holding it. So I had to grind and clearance it to make it fit. Sigh. Nothing is ever easy. However, I now have a functioning alternator. One issue resolved.

Then I went driving around for maybe 45 minutes. I drove the car harder to have quick starts and stops and slosh oil around a lot. When I got it back on the lift I saw there is still an oil leak. Damn it!!! It is coming from the front of the engine - the rear area was dry.
What I'm not sure about is where specifically this is coming from; I'm not sure it is the oil pan gasket area. I'll have to check tomorrow morning carefully once the car (and me) have cooled down sufficiently.

I'm sure you'll get it figured out. If it's at the front of the engine, the timing chain cover or crank seal is what's going through my head right now. Hang in there, persistence pays off.

 

[Budnicks]

throwing it out there, brainstorming/guessing
because it's not uncommon

right at the corner/s of where the
bottom of the timing cover & pan intersects (maybe ?)
possibly by/where those 2 pan bolts 'come up' thru into the timing cover

(I always pay a lil' extra attention in that area too,
lil' extra, not much/dabs of silicone in the corners)

you probably already have
but;
check all the pan bolts for tight too

 

[HawkRod]

throwing it out there, brainstorming/guessing
because it's not uncommon

right at the corner/s of where the
bottom of the timing cover & pan intersects (maybe ?)
possibly by/where those 2 pan bolts 'come up' thru into the timing cover

(I always pay a lil' extra attention in that area too,
lil' extra, not much/dabs of silicone in the corners)

you probably already have
but;
check all the pan bolts for tight too

Thanks for the brainstorming - I need all I can get right now.

I am very careful with the oil pan so I don't overtighten bolts - to avoid warping, etc., maybe too careful? So I went around and tightened up the bolts further. Same $hit, different day.

I simply cannot find any source of leak above the pan (not saying there isn't one, but I be damned if I can find any). The transmission inspection cover remains bone dry inside, so I don't think rear main seal is an issue. I saw a drop or two of oil on the starter, but that seems like it was blown there since there is no oil above it; the oil pressure sender area is dry as a bone, as are the heads where oil may cling and trickle down. As you warn about in your note, I believe that the pan corners are the most likely culprits.

I have now dropped the pan again and I am going back to the old tried and true cork gasket with the windage tray sandwiched in between. Biggest issue now I think will be getting gasket, windage tray, gasket and oil pan all up onto the engine and tightened down without screwing up RTV or gaskets. If it was just a pan, it would be easy, but the windage tray add parts, plus it cannot be lifted straight up - it must be angled and twisted around the oil pickup to get it on.
Everything is clean and ready to reinstall, but I'll wait until I get another pair of hands to keep stuff aligned and help get it all in place properly.

Again, I appreciate the thoughts and help from afar!

 

[Don Frelier]

I had an LA 360 years ago that I sealed the bottom of the timing cover by thoroughly cleaning and externally applying RTV never leaked again.

Your timing cover seal didn't come with a "repair sleeve" by chance?
I had one of those on a Magnum where I didn't use the repair seal as my balancer looked fine.
But the seal was sized for the increased OD of the repair sleeve so it leaked but not very much.

 

[Budnicks]

Thanks for the brainstorming - I need all I can get right now.

I am very careful with the oil pan so I don't overtighten bolts - to avoid warping, etc., maybe too careful? So I went around and tightened up the bolts further. Same $hit, different day.

I simply cannot find any source of leak above the pan (not saying there isn't one, but I be damned if I can find any). The transmission inspection cover remains bone dry inside, so I don't think rear main seal is an issue. I saw a drop or two of oil on the starter, but that seems like it was blown there since there is no oil above it; the oil pressure sender area is dry as a bone, as are the heads where oil may cling and trickle down. As you warn about in your note, I believe that the pan corners are the most likely culprits.

I have now dropped the pan again and I am going back to the old tried and true cork gasket with the windage tray sandwiched in between. Biggest issue now I think will be getting gasket, windage tray, gasket and oil pan all up onto the engine and tightened down without screwing up RTV or gaskets. If it was just a pan, it would be easy, but the windage tray add parts, plus it cannot be lifted straight up - it must be angled and twisted around the oil pickup to get it on.
Everything is clean and ready to reinstall, but I'll wait until I get another pair of hands to keep stuff aligned and help get it all in place properly.

Again, I appreciate the thoughts and help from afar!

a wild *** softball
probably not even close to the leak

But;

maybe from where the mechanical fuel pump mounts (?)
or the plug (to take out the pump rod) below it, hard to see or tell

I had one leak, one time that drove me nuts,
looked like it came from a corner of the oil pan
I swore it was dry above it
& I didn't even have a fuel pump, just a block-off plate (running electric)
but it was dribbling from the plug under it
(usually only after a N2O hit too)
I put some pipe dope on that, it stopped
(I really didn't think much oil could even get there, oh well)
for good measures, I resealed the 'pump block off plate' too

I had redone the pan & timing cover & front crank seal, 1st of course
made sure to take special care of those areas up front too...
I hate oil drips or leaks with a passion...

when I finally found it, I had to laugh

sometimes it's the simplest things, you overlook or don't think of
always nice to have second eyes or good opinions to help
or just BS

 

[Budnicks]

another crazy idea, guess

Do you have a blow-plate on the back of the block
for clutch explosions or that 'thin steel plate' between the bell housing & block
(I don't remember if it's an 727 or an 833 )
maybe a pipe plug or cam freeze plug behind that
so it's not going into the bell-housing

 

[HawkRod]

I had an LA 360 years ago that I sealed the bottom of the timing cover by thoroughly cleaning and externally applying RTV never leaked again.

Your timing cover seal didn't come with a "repair sleeve" by chance?
I had one of those on a Magnum where I didn't use the repair seal as my balancer looked fine.
But the seal was sized for the increased OD of the repair sleeve so it leaked but not very much.

No repair sleeve - I just put in a standard seal. I think the sleeves are for the crank nose? The front of my crank is fine and not worn. I even put the balancer on before I tightened up the cover even though it has alignment pins. Looking behind the balancer is impossible, but I have run my finger on the ledge at the bottom of the timing cover and it has been "fairly" dry. There was oil there, but it seemed more to be blown on it rather than the source. Running the car on the lift it stayed bone dry.
I thought about pulling the balancer to check it, but doing the belts with my crazy A/C and alternator arrangement makes that an extra pain in the butt. If this attempt doesn't work that may have to be next.

a wild *** softball
probably not even close to the leak

But;

maybe from where the mechanical fuel pump mounts (?)
or the plug (to take out the pump rod) below it, hard to see or tell

I had one leak, one time that drove me nuts,
looked like it came from a corner of the oil pan
I swore it was dry above it
& I didn't even have a fuel pump, just a block-off plate (running electric)
but it was dribbling from the plug under it
(usually only after a N2O hit too)
I put some pipe dope on that, it stopped
(I really didn't think much oil could even get there, oh well)
for good measures, I resealed the 'pump block off plate' too

I had redone the pan & timing cover & front crank seal, 1st of course
made sure to take special care of those areas up front too...
I hate oil drips or leaks with a passion...

when I finally found it, I had to laugh

sometimes it's the simplest things, you overlook or don't think of
always nice to have second eyes or good opinions to help
or just BS

So I do feel like I got a decent look at my fuel pump area. I just have a blockoff plate and that's the area where my A/C sits. The block underneath that area has been dry. I also checked the oil pump area too, and all "finger swipe" and visual tests have come back dry.

another crazy idea, guess

Do you have a blow-plate on the back of the block
for clutch explosions or that 'thin steel plate' between the bell housing & block
(I don't remember if it's an 727 or an 833 )
maybe a pipe plug or cam freeze plug behind that
so it's not going into the bell-housing

I have a Passon A-855 5 speed - so essentially the same footprint as an 833. I have a 10.5 bellhousing bolted directly to the block, with, of course, the flywheel and clutch underneath (see picture below). I checked all my cam freeze plugs and pipe plugs after running it on the run stand, and all dry as a bone. Every time I have checked my inspection cover it has been completely dry inside. I'd think that if the rear main seal, freeze or cam plug were leaking it would go into that area? The back of the flywheel is also dry, and it doesn't look like it is slinging oil around the inside of the bellhousing.


Gentlemen: I GREATLY appreciate the brainstorming - it gives me extra things to think about and check if I haven't already.
What is frustrating is that I ran the engine on the run stand specifically so I wouldn't have these issues!!!
But, I feel like that is a clue also. The engine was dry on the run stand (but with only 5 and not 7 quarts of oil), so it seems logical that the leak(s) is/are from oil sloshing around during driving that can't be mimicked on a run stand. I have resealed the oil pan with rubber/cork Felpro gaskets, RTV and steel windage tray - old school. If I still have a leak after this I can't believe that I am THAT much of an idiot that I would fail the oil pan sealing three times! Then it has to be something other than the oil pan.

Here is a picture during the "operation":

The job is done, but I will leave the car sit the Permatex manufacturer recommended 24 hours for the RTV to fully cure. I'll fire it up tomorrow night or Wednesday morning and see what happens. I have until Friday night to get this sorted out before I am scheduled to drive over 2000 miles next week. Nothing like a little pressure...

 

[qkcuda]

I hate to say it Hawk, but the one difference from when you ran it on the run stand is the valve covers. I had an oil leak at the rear of my block I thought was the pan gasket or rear main seal. Turned out to be running down from the valve covers. I could not see where it was coming from, but tightening the covers solved the leak.

 

[guy gadbois]

You got this... no worries.

 

[HawkRod]

I hate to say it Hawk, but the one difference from when you ran it on the run stand is the valve covers. I had an oil leak at the rear of my block I thought was the pan gasket or rear main seal. Turned out to be running down from the valve covers. I could not see where it was coming from, but tightening the covers solved the leak.

Thanks for the suggestion, and I wish you were on to something.

As you stated, I did swap to my stamped steel valve covers onto the engine. Actually, leaks from the valve covers were one of the first things I thought about, and quite frankly, hoped it was. But it is dry all around them, and everything on the engine is dry pretty much above the oil pan line. Oil seems to cling to heads and run down, but the heads have been dry as well. I have looked and run my fingers all over this engine and it is dry pretty much above the oil pan line. The only real exception was I saw a couple of drops on the starter, but it was bone dry above the starter, including the valve covers. So my guess is that was oil that blew back while on the highway?