If you know about distributors-read this.

[john.thompson068]

Had a guy recurve distributor. He sends me a card that says 20 degrees initial, 34 total at 3400. He said bring motor to 3200 and set timing at 34. Last time I set timing after replacing the pick up coil I just set the timing to 14 degrees. Could not setting the timing the way that guy said set the timing cause my motor to run hot and have a slow crank when hot issue? I will of course go out and experiment with this eventually next week but would like to know something now if possible.

 

[lewtot184]

your distributor has 14 crank degrees in it and when you set the initial at 14 degrees that gives you 28 degrees total. will 28 degrees total cause the engine to run hot? i think not but sometimes anythings possible. 14 crankshaft degrees in the distributor isn't much. for a street car i don't go any less than 18. if your running 28 degrees total that could hurt power and low speed performance. if it were me i'd go 18-20 crankshaft degrees in the distributor and 16-18 initial and bring it all in around 2000-2200rpm. if i remember correctly this engine has a lot of cam in it. bringing the total in at 3400rpm is awful late. as far as the hard starting when hot goes; i'd test the starter and battery.

 

[john.thompson068]

your distributor has 14 crank degrees in it and when you set the initial at 14 degrees that gives you 28 degrees total. will 28 degrees total cause the engine to run hot? i think not but sometimes anythings possible. 14 crankshaft degrees in the distributor isn't much. for a street car i don't go any less than 18. if your running 28 degrees total that could hurt power and low speed performance. if it were me i'd go 18-20 crankshaft degrees in the distributor and 16-18 initial and bring it all in around 2000-2200rpm. if i remember correctly this engine has a lot of cam in it. bringing the total in at 3400rpm is awful late. as far as the hard starting when hot goes; i'd test the starter and battery.

Oh woops. Total of 34 all in by 3000. Now you have me interested in setting the timing the way the guy recommended it. I wonder if this has anything to do with the low speed stumble, running hot, and hard start? I will have to reset timing sometime this week and take it for a drive and see what happens. As far as the battery and starter go, they are both brand new. The starter went in two weekends ago, and the battery went in last August or September. I often keep a tickle charger on the battery to keep it fully charged up. The motor has some cam, 305 duration 525/525 lift.

 

[lewtot184]

Oh woops. Total of 34 all in by 3000. Now you have me interested in setting the timing the way the guy recommended it. I wonder if this has anything to do with the low speed stumble, running hot, and hard start? I will have to reset timing sometime this week and take it for a drive and see what happens. As far as the battery and starter go, they are both brand new. The starter went in two weekends ago, and the battery went in last August or September. I often keep a tickle charger on the battery to keep it fully charged up. The motor has some cam, 305 duration 525/525 lift.

for street driving having the total in by 3000-3500rpm is too late. this will contribute to a low speed stumble or sluggishness. also can contribute too poor curb idle because the throttle blades may be open too far at idle. change the springs in the distributor and get the total in around 2000rpm. timing at idle will need to be about 20-25 degrees. the only way to achieve this is with lighter springs to start bringing the curve in sooner. i have a 440 6-pak in my 65 coronet and use 18 crank degrees in the distributor with a light primary spring and 18 degrees initial. total is all in around 2200rpm. car drives great and i don't use near as much cam as you have.

 

[john.thompson068]

for street driving having the total in by 3000-3500rpm is too late. this will contribute to a low speed stumble or sluggishness. also can contribute too poor curb idle because the throttle blades may be open too far at idle. change the springs in the distributor and get the total in around 2000rpm. timing at idle will need to be about 20-25 degrees. the only way to achieve this is with lighter springs to start bringing the curve in sooner. i have a 440 6-pak in my 65 coronet and use 18 crank degrees in the distributor with a light primary spring and 18 degrees initial. total is all in around 2200rpm. car drives great and i don't use near as much cam as you have.

It is interesting you guys both say that the total comes in too late. I never have mentioned who the "guy" was because I don't like bad mouthing anyone even if there products are defective. But I think it needs to be brought into the discussion. I once ordered an ignition kit from Don at 4 seconds flat. The ECU fizzled out after a short time. He sent me another one for free and he convinced me I needed my distributor recurved. This procedure was and still is totally unexplored territory to me. The price was fair so I sent it over to him. It came back with that card I told you about. I no longer deal with Don since his second ECU fizzled out on me, then when he tried to sell me a far more expensive ECU, I said I didn't want to spend money on something that might only last a couple of months, he cussed me out, I hung up the phone. But isn't this guy supposed to know what he is doing? By reading his information on the website it sounds like he should. I need to get out there and set my timing the way he said to on that card. I am going to do that right now.

 

[lewtot184]

i've dealt with don before, bought his products with no real issue but don't like his distributor curves. i build my own distributors and use the mopar electronic ignition and have never popped a box. popped 3 ballast resistors since 1967. i've used all sorts of different boxes since 1973. in my opinion a chrome box is all anyone needs. i don't care for the MSD stuff but i do believe it has its place; just not on my cars. i always make sure my electrical components are properly grounded and i match parts up to the best of my knowledge. recurve your distributor and i'll bet you'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[john.thompson068]

Pleasantly surprised how? What does that have to do with the car not cranking when hot? What kind of improvement could I expect by having you tell me how to recruve my distributor?

I went out and set the timing like Don said. I took it for a drive and it sure did run better. The really bad stumble off idle cleared right up. I drove the car only for ten minutes though and the temperature while driving was at 180 the whole time. It heated up to 195 by the time I got through my apartments and back into my garage. Went to restart and the car would absolutely not crank. All I heard was the wierd whining sound coming from the starter. I backed timing down by hand and the car was able to start. I ended up setting timing at 18 degrees and going for another test drive. The car still ran good as before, but now temperatures were up to 210 by the time I got back to the garage. At least now the car would start, but just barely. However, I had only been out for ten minutes again. If I had gone out for a longer drive I would garauntee the car would not crank.

This leads me to believe one thing at this point. There is some issue with my cars wiring which becomes a problem when the engine compartment gets hot. The problem must be in the trunk as the only thing that is in the heat of the engine compartment is the starter cable. I installed a MAD electrical battery relocation kit exactly as Mark said to.

I will call Mark on Monday to see what he has to say. Depending on what he has to say I will try and figure this problem out which has been plaguing this car since I put it on the road nearly 12 months ago or I will put the car up for sale this summer and basically give it away.

 

[D575]

Put the battery back where it belongs.

 

[splicer]

Are u running a vacuum advance distributor or not ??

If no, then you've already noticed that the further you advance your initial timing, the harder it cranks...

Vacuum advance at idle allows the engine to run much cooler without running
high static advance and screwing up the cranking...and you can adjust your vacuum advance to go away as soon as you mash the throttle.....No....mine doesn't run perfect(505 stroker) and will overheat if I sit in traffic too long(I need to install a fan shroud) but it WILL crank because it's not fighting too much static advance. My timing curve is 12 initial, 24 mechanical for 34 total, all in at 2600....plus vacuum advance when applicable...

As for where the battery is located.....makes no difference as long as cable is correct size and connections are good.


Hope this might help..
Splicer

 

[john.thompson068]

Put the battery back where it belongs.

Why? Everyone else that has their battery in the trunk doesn't have any problems.

 

[john.thompson068]

Are u running a vacuum advance distributor or not ??

If no, then you've already noticed that the further you advance your initial timing, the harder it cranks...

Vacuum advance at idle allows the engine to run much cooler without running
high static advance and screwing up the cranking...and you can adjust your vacuum advance to go away as soon as you mash the throttle.....No....mine doesn't run perfect(505 stroker) and will overheat if I sit in traffic too long(I need to install a fan shroud) but it WILL crank because it's not fighting too much static advance. My timing curve is 12 initial, 24 mechanical for 34 total, all in at 2600....plus vacuum advance when applicable...

As for where the battery is located.....makes no difference as long as cable is correct size and connections are good.


Hope this might help..
Splicer

I forgot to mention in this latest series of posts, that it has nothing to do with the timing. I disconnected the coil and the starter still struggles or will not crank the motor. It has something to do with heat and getting power to the starter. Thanks for reminding me though that the hot start problem has nothing to do with timing.

 

[splicer]

For what it's worth, I'm running a Powermaster mini starter, TTI Headers and battery in the trunk.....no heat shielding...

The problem here is too much heat...right ?

If you are not running vacuum advance, your engine will run much hotter at idle and overheat starter......

Look up "Timing and Vacuum Advance" by John Hinckley...it will explain...

 

[john.thompson068]

For what it's worth, I'm running a Powermaster mini starter, TTI Headers and battery in the trunk.....no heat shielding...

The problem here is too much heat...right ?

If you are not running vacuum advance, your engine will run much hotter at idle and overheat starter......

Look up "Timing and Vacuum Advance" by John Hinckley...it will explain...

The problem is heat related. When the engine gets hot, the starter slows down. My distributor does not have a vacuum advance. However, I am not sure that the engine running hotter at idle is overheating the starter. Last night I cruised for ten minutes with the engine at 180 degrees the entire time. During the last couple minutes coming through my apartments and into my garage temperature went up to 190 degrees. None of these temperatures are too hot, and the car had only been running for ten or 15 minutes. Yet, the starter was going so slow that it could barely or could not fire the car off. So I don't think it will matter if I install a bigger radiator, more fans, vacuum advance, or different starter. Other people here have the exact same setup as me and they have no problems. There is something else going on here.

 

[splicer]

Don't forget that what you're looking at is "coolant" temperature, which does not necessarily tell you starter temp or carb temp or various other underhood temps.

If you read the article I referred to you, you'll see that retarded timing at idle causes unburned fuel charge to leave the cylinders and burn in the exhaust ports and headers, raising their temps dramatically...headers are next to starter, right...

I'm only trying to help and I've been down this road......I've got my own box of near new electric fans under the bench.....

I've run the car both with and without vacuum advance and it carries a lot more heat with out the advance....I even leave it hooked at the drag strip...

Good Luck

 

[splicer]

Just a bit more info...starter shimming is to change depth of engagement of pinion teeth on starter ring from front to rear....has nothing to do with starter temp....

If its not binding cold, it won't bind hot....If anything, when the block is hot it probably expands and moves the starter a few thou further from the ring gear..

 

[john.thompson068]

Well I do appreciate all of the advice. I will take a while to read the link. It is also good to hear that I do not need to shim my starter.

 

[Meep-Meep]

I really don't see any reason why your engine should run so hot to the point of having starter issues, or having it heat up to 200 deg before you get it on the road because you either missed the total timing number by 6 degrees or left the vac advance unplugged. If this is a new engine with very low hours then it could run quite a bit hotter than one that is broke in. Or you have a head gasket issue, which is causing the engine to overheat.

Is your thermostat opening? Take it out and boil it with a thermometer until it opens. Is there anything preventing the T stat to open mechanically? Is it installed correctly? The copper plug thing faces the engine.

If the starter and battery cable get unusually hot because of an electrical load then that implies it's working its *** off. Just for fun take a torque wrench to the crank bolt and see what number you get - cold and hot. With my hemi cold I get about 52 ft lbs before it breaks loose. If the starter is getting hot because of headers and/or engine then heat shielding the starter may solve the issue.

 

[Meep-Meep]

Oh, and the distributor guy is correct when he says to check the timing at 3400. When popping in a different curve you must always set the total, or at least know what's going on past initial.

 

[383man]

It sounds like a starter problem. I would check the starter draw cold and hot. If it only got up to 190 then its not getting to hot. I dont run a vacum advance at all but my dist dont have a vacum advance on it. I run a very fast mech advance which I have 38 total all in by 2000 RPM and I dont have any heating problems. I would definetly check starter draw and I would do a voltage drop test on the starter circuit when hot also. Ron

 

[67 coronet]

how new is the motor?only time i have encountered something similar in hot no start was do to carbon build up in the cylinder head.was causing preignition by retaining heat(like a cigaret)just thought i would throw that in there.